#occupy London....

[Sue]

Went through the City on a bus about 1 this morning. Wall to wall police vans round St Paul's/Bank-- Met rather than City of London Police. Was wondering what was going on as seemed to have missed all this.

 

[butchersapron]

I posted up a link to Sad Red Earth earlier - page 3 I think... you might find it useful

And you might ignore the potential problems with that unilateral approach. These assemblies are there for a reason you know.

 

[bingiman]

oh, and the reason I came on here to post was that the Vicar at St Pauls has come out in support of the occupation, and asked the police to leave, which they have apparently.. at least into their vans.
Should set a whole different tone for policing the occupation today and from now onwards.. and if the police leave it alone now, it could grow very quickly... perhaps it'll still be there for November 9th to use as a convergence centre!

I believe now is a good time to get out any old tents and sleeping bags that you don't mind losing and get down to St Pauls

 

[love detective]

That 10% of the population includes esentialy anyone who owns a house in London. What Tatchell is actually proposing here is that the government go out tomorrow and ask for £30k off every homeowner in London. What's more that still wouldn't be anywhere near enough to pay off the existing government debt, which doesn't even include the banking liabilities, and does nothing about the £175bn pa structrual defecit!

According to the most recent ONS report on wealth distribution (PDF) in the UK - the Net household wealth (i.e. after deducting borrowing/mortgages) at the level of the third quartile was £460,000. So this represents the 'poorest' amount of wealth in the top 25% of the population, clearly as you move up from the top 25%, through top 10%, through top 1%, to top 0.1% this figure will increase exponentially - however this is a level they don't go into in the report on this particular statistic. However what's clear is that no one in the wealthiest 25% of the country has net wealth of less than £460,000. From their breakdown of total wealth by deciles, it looks like the top 10% has 2.4 times as much wealth as the next richest decile - so applying this factor to the £460,000 gives us a rough (and conservative) guide to the bottom level of net wealth for the top 10% of around £1.1m. So this is about the level we are talking about.

So are you claiming that everyone who owns a house in London has net wealth (after taking into account mortgages owed) of £1.1m?

Also a 20% tax on wealth of the top 10% would not mean everyone in that category paying the same amount (your 30k) but it would clearly be proportionate to their level of wealth. In total the top 10% own 4 trillion and 20% on that would yield £800bn - you claim this would not be anywhere near enough to pay of existing government debt, but at July 2011 this figure stood at £940bn, so it would pay off 85% of it (for the time being will leave aside the desirability or otherwise of this debt being paid off however, for now can just focus on the numbers).

Your last point about the debt number not including the banking liabilities is irrelevant as the value of banking assets held in the nationalised/part nationalised banks are higher than the level of liabilities, so there is a net asset there, not a net liability. Because some measures of UK debt include the liabillities of the banks (but not their assets) this allows people to scream hysterically at levels of debt, but it's nothing more than a fuckwitted statistical requirement to present the numbers in this way, it doesn't mean anything. If you were to include the net assets/liabilities of the banks in the goverrment debt figures it would actually reduce, not increase, the number

 

[nino_savatte]

We all know that Hannan is a swivel-eyed right wing loon but here he is attacking the protesters and apologising for his rentier capitalist chums.

Alright, all you demonstrators, we get what you're against: capitalism, banks, rich people, free trade, wealth creation and property rights. But what exactly are you for?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...tests-youve-picked-the-wrong-target-comrades/

Notice how he trots out the old cliche "You don't have an answer, therefore whatever you do is wrong".

That's right: the richest ten per cent pay 53.3 per cent of all income tax. Now reasonable people can disagree about what constitutes a fair share, but it is difficult to avoid at least one firm conclusion: if you impoverish, exile or otherwise disincentivise the people who pay more than half our taxes, our economy will collapse.

This is a straw man, but let's carry on.

Please understand, my Leftie friends, that what has taken place since 2008 is anything but capitalism. In a capitalist system, incompetent banks would have been allowed to fail, their profitable operations sold on to their competitors. Shareholders, bondholders and some depositors would have lost money, but taxpayers would not have contributed a penny.

Wrong, it is capitalism, Danny Boy.

This is the best bit,

Don't blame 'the rich'; blame those in the Bank of England and the Treasury who, despite the palpable failure of their bailout-and-borrow policies, are determined to carry on doing the same thing.

Ye olde deflection. "Don't blame the rich he says" (because he is one of them). Yet it is those rich bastards who not only rely on corporate welfare but who salt their money away in offshore accounts to avoid paying tax. In other words, that money is not in this country.

 

[BigTom]

he also jumps from "income tax" to "tax" in the article, and it's posited on the whole notion that income tax is the only tax.
The whole article is wrong from top to bottom as you say, but even on it's own terms it's a particularly stupid piece of analysis.

 

[butchersapron]

Watch this from 2.20 - Our father who art in heaven

 

[past caring]

Fuck's sake.

 

[dylans]

Watch this from 2.20 - Our father who art in heaven

That is disturbingly cult like. Doesn't anyone there feel like saying. "look, pack it in. You sound like loonies. There is a fucking microphone right in front of him". God, nothing could be more guaranteed to alienate people from joining in.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Who the fuck are those cunts?

and people are whinging about the Swaps

 

[butchersapron]

That is disturbingly cult like. Doesn't anyone there feel like saying. "look, pack it in. You sound like loonies. There is a fucking microphone right in front of him". God, nothing could be more guaranteed to alienate people from joining in.

There were people hanging around just off the green, not convinced whether to get involved or not - i saw them, there was lots of this sort of thing going on and it was clearly putting them off. Lots of people just wandered off up the road to the pub. I'll have another look today.

 

[dylans]

Who the fuck are those cunts?

and people are whinging about the Swaps

It makes me despair.......But then I remember this

and this

and this

and I remember the potential.

 

[Mapped]

I'd rather have the SWP than some of the other wankers involved. At least they understand the issues at hand.

Yeah. But I bet the SWP have got a list for who's first up against the wall when revolution comes. Life's more complicated than that.

I don't have anything against swappies personally. I'd like massive change, but don't share their revolutionary zeal. Their approach is alienating and scary to many people who aren't educated in these issues and it's these people who need to be brought on board. A stand of very keen and well meaning people outside a tube station, doesn't achieve this. Most people think that they are nuts.

Other more subtle methods are needed.

Hope I've not been out of order here and don't want to offend any trots.

 

[Mapped]

You should take it back.

Yeah. Otherwise you'll get a massive fine for an outstanding loan

 

[nino_savatte]

he also jumps from "income tax" to "tax" in the article, and it's posited on the whole notion that income tax is the only tax.
The whole article is wrong from top to bottom as you say, but even on it's own terms it's a particularly stupid piece of analysis.

He had the best education money could buy and he's still as thick as pigshit.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Yeah. But I bet the SWP have got a list for who's first up against the wall when revolution comes. Life's more complicated than that.

I don't have anything against swappies personally. I'd like massive change, but don't share their revolutionary zeal. Their approach is alienating and scary to many people who aren't educated in these issues and it's these people who need to be brought on board. A stand of very keen and well meaning people outside a tube station, doesn't achieve this. Most people think that they are nuts.

Other more subtle methods are needed.

Hope I've not been out of order here and don't want to offend any trots.

Do you not think that the behviour shown in the video above is more alienating than a couple of daft students trying to sell papers and give out placards?

 

[Luther Blissett]

There were people hanging around just off the green, not convinced whether to get involved or not - i saw them, there was lots of this sort of thing going on and it was clearly putting them off. Lots of people just wandered off up the road to the pub. I'll have another look today.

Challenge it. Film it. It's on your patch.

 

[Mapped]

To Spanky - Just woke up and was replying to my comments last night. Haven't checked the vid out yet. Will do today. As I say I may be wrong about the SWP

 

[butchersapron]

Do you think i wouldn't have challenged that if i'd seen it?

 

[rekil]

Who the fuck are those cunts?

Open your mind sheeple!!11!

A Ryman Isthmian League (Division One South) David Icke. Disgusting.

 

[ska invita]

Two interesting reads here

Richard Seymour - Strategies for the anticapitalist transition - a piece about all the collective decision making going on, and general make up of the Occupy phenomenon
"At the same time, the pursuit of more immediate agendas has allowed a modus vivendi to emerge among potentially competitive groups, but it has also meant that the strategic question tends to be suspended in practice. So, before moving on to the rest of the Poulantzas stuff, I just wanted to sketch out a few observations on the relevance of strategic thought to this movement. "
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/10/strategies-for-anticapitalist.html

and Paul Mason - 'Occupy' is a response to economic permafrost:- "In February I wrote a blog called "Twenty Reasons Why It's Kicking Off Everywhere". With the global Occupy protests yesterday it is still looking quite accurate. But it's now clear there is a 21st reason. And a 22nd. We've had nine months of political paralysis. And people have begun to feel the economic permafrost setting in. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15326636

Both worth clicking

 

[albionism]

It makes me despair.......But then I remember this

and this

and this

and I remember the potential.

size of that geezer's fist!

 

[flutterbye]

Mass account closures starting to happen across US banks.
November 5th is the main day of action.
http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywalls...st_closed_out_my_chase_account_and_have_some/

 

[ska invita]

Do we need a Occupy Everywhere thread for non-place specific general chat? It was quite useful in the riots for having separate threads for different areas...

 

[ska invita]

Mass account closures starting to happen across US banks.
November 5th is the main day of action.
http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywalls...st_closed_out_my_chase_account_and_have_some/

im in the process of moving mine to the Co-op - its taking ages though (my fault really)

i wasnt very happy to see the coop get downgraded the other day - dont know what that means about the investments theyve been making. I did look into coop investment policy a few years back, and i came across a statement saying there isnt enough ethical investment opportunities for them, so not all investments are all that ethcial (or words to that effect). Wish i could find that again. Anyway, fuck Barclays.

 

[dylans]

The footage of the uglier of the two anti-Semitic incidents is culled from a longer video that has been on the web for over a week, and which culminates with an interview of the young man who berates and insults the old Jew. What is clear from the interview is that the guy is a loner and an outlier besides an ignorant asshole. What is clear from the Emergency Committee’s video is that its purpose is no emergency work on behalf of Israel, but the low and commonplace trashing of domestic political opponents, as it attempts to connect such as President Obama and Nancy Pelosi to the protests, and through the protests to the anti-Semitic and Gaza supportive elements. The video also belittles thea protestors as a mob, and as such declares its plutocratic contempt

There is more on the Emergency Committee for Israel's anti semitism smear here.

 

[Mapped]

Do we need a Occupy Everywhere thread for non-place specific general chat? It was quite useful in the riots for having separate threads for different areas...

We might need an Occupy sub forum at this rate

 

[Luther Blissett]

Do we need a Occupy Everywhere thread for non-place specific general chat? It was quite useful in the riots for having separate threads for different areas...

Yes. And we need a 'how to address the cultists & racist conspiracy theorists' heads-together too, because it needs multiple-person input

 

[Luther Blissett]

We might need an Occupy sub forum at this rate

I like that idea. Occupy Urban75

 

[Luther Blissett]

Do you think i wouldn't have challenged that if i'd seen it?

You'd said "there was lots of this sort of thing going on and it was clearly putting them off" - so I thought you had actually heard/seen it