#occupy London....

[Pickman's model]

I have the funny feeling that their problems run deeper than 'street drinkers'.... bit of a crap excuse to abandon camp.. and what do they mean by strong physical support?? hmm... im sure the street drinkers were there first and ime can be reasoned with...

unlike the campers, it seems.

 

[Pickman's model]

The squat / free party / festival scene etc. may have had different objectives and numbers, but I bet a lot of the organisers found constantly pissed up people to be a bit of a pain in the arse. I think much of this is a numbers game. If the number of full time "on it" activists is fairly small then it won't take too much by way of disruptive / aggressive behaviour from pissed folk to throw things off balance. Hence I aint too worried about London in this regard, but know it has affected other smaller occs beyond Manchester and Brighton. f Brigthon is anything like Manchester they will be having their days, nights and efforts to engage the public all disrupted by fairly mashed people. Perhaps you can get down there and give them the benefit of your experience of overcoming such obstacles. It might also be of use if you can put together a leaflet on how to win round the public to a cause while pissheads, who appear to be attached to your cause, are staggering around and shouting a lot.

do you like your identity politics? because you seem quite happy attributing single identities to other people who just possibly might object to them. it's rather depressing seeing your view that somehow street drinkers aren't quite equal. people don't start off street drinkers, you know, and street drinkers are frankly the sort of people these camps are for. street drinkers have become so disenfranchised and alienated from society that laws are put in place up and down the land to fucking see them off - laws which, clearly, won't apply to the decent drinkers among us. somehow each and every street drinker has suffered a series of mishaps in their lives, perhaps unemployment, perhaps the slow lingering death of a loved one, perhaps a combination of factors which have led them to where they are today. and what do they receive from people who claim to be against the system which discards people, which forces large swathes of society into regular alcohol abuse? veiled threats of physical violence and being told in no uncertain terms that, once again, they're useless.

fuck off back under the stone you came from.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Pickmans:

It's got nothing to do with street drinkers or any other kind of drinkers being less equal. drink dependency really knows no class anyhow. It is a case of people constantly disrupting occupations efforts regardless of whether they are "street" or not, though they do tend to be drunk I gather. That is the issue: Pissed people obstructing occs, as experienced in at least 3 I can think of. Not "identity politics". Not my opinions. But it's harder to deal with than slagging people off, I'll grant you that.

ETA: I agree that these camps are for street drinkers as much as anyone, perhaps even more so due to their alienated circs. But an unworkable camp from disruption and aggression is still just that. A camp that successfully deals with such challenges will basically be running as an unpaid branch of social services. Verily, 'tis Comrade Cameron's Big Society, and Bumface should thus declare allegience to anarchy. Or summat.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Separately

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/06/city-property-benefit-developer-mayor

 

[Treacle Toes]

veiled threats of physical violence and being told in no uncertain terms that, once again, they're useless.

.

Where is this happening?

 

[Treacle Toes]

But an unworkable camp from disruption and aggression is still just that. A camp that successfully deals with such challenges will basically be running as an unpaid branch of social services.

This is where the camps need to be approaching relevant organisations for help/guidance etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where is this happening?

see post 551

 

[Treacle Toes]

Do you mean this one PM?

'Christina Freeman
From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA.

I don't think the 'physical support' thing is necessarily a threat of violence . A camp is unworkable and unsustainable if there are not enough 'sober' people to run it and maintain order.

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you mean this one PM?

I don't think the 'physical support' thing is necessarily a threat of violence . A camp is unworkable and unsustainable if there are not enough 'sober' people to run it and maintain order.

if that's post 551 that's the one i mean. what does 'strong physical support' suggest to you? i suppose next you'll be telling me that 'resettlement in the east' really did mean that european jews were in fact being settled in the former poland and other points east occupied by the germans in the war.

 

[Treacle Toes]

what does 'strong physical support' suggest to you?

i suppose next you'll be telling me that 'resettlement in the east' really did mean that european jews were in fact being settled in the former poland and other points east occupied by the germans in the war.

I suggest you calm down and stop putting words into my mouth.

I have said what I think it could mean. I also know that having a lot of drunk people on camp is a pain in the bloody arse if things need to get done in terms of organisation and maintanence, it can also be intimidating if said people are arsey/disruptive or aggressive in any way.

I'm not saying that all street drinkers are like this of course...I am saying that some are and regardless of how they got to be in the situation they are, it appears that the camps are not equipped to deal with the fallout of having high numbers of street drinkers on site, without similar numbers of sober people there too.

 

[Pickman's model]

if i wanted strong physical support, it'd mean that i wanted someone to twat someone else. there's no other meaning or construction i could put on that phrase.

as for putting words in your mouth, i didn't. do you get this arsy every time someone asks you a question?

 

[smokedout]

Pickmans:

It's got nothing to do with street drinkers or any other kind of drinkers being less equal. drink dependency really knows no class anyhow. It is a case of people constantly disrupting occupations efforts regardless of whether they are "street" or not, though they do tend to be drunk I gather. That is the issue: Pissed people obstructing occs, as experienced in at least 3 I can think of. Not "identity politics". Not my opinions. But it's harder to deal with than slagging people off, I'll grant you that.

ETA: I agree that these camps are for street drinkers as much as anyone, perhaps even more so due to their alienated circs. But an unworkable camp from disruption and aggression is still just that. A camp that successfully deals with such challenges will basically be running as an unpaid branch of social services. Verily, 'tis Comrade Cameron's Big Society, and Bumface should thus declare allegience to anarchy. Or summat.

you're all over the place, are you pissed?

 

[smokedout]

This is where the camps need to be approaching relevant organisations for help/guidance etc.

theres a cheap off licence opposite barbican station if that helps

 

[Treacle Toes]

if i wanted strong physical support, it'd mean that i wanted someone to twat someone else. there's no other meaning or construction i could put on that phrase.

That is what you would mean. That doesn't mean everyone else means the same using those words.

as for putting words in your mouth, i didn't. do you get this arsy every time someone asks you a question?

I am not being arsey. I am suggesting there are other reasons why this camp wants more sober people on site for practical reasons I have stated and not necessarily because, as you want to suggest, that the sober protesters are doing the equivalent of 'ethnic cleansing' under the guise of something else.

 

[Pickman's model]

I am not being arsey. I am suggesting there are other reasons why this camp wants more sober people on site for practical reasons I have stated and not necessarily because as you want to suggest that the protestors are doing the equivalent of 'ethnic cleansing'.

you are being arsy because you said that i was putting words in your mouth.

 

[smokedout]

I am not being arsey. I am suggesting there are other reasons why this camp wants more sober people on site for practical reasons I have stated and not necessarily because as you want to suggest that the protestors are doing the equivalent of 'ethnic cleansing'.

but surely a camp will have more sober people on site, if not its just a piss up anyway and whats the problem?

st pauls certainly does, but they've still decided to ban drinking (and by extension street drinkers)

 

[Treacle Toes]

you are being arsy because you said that i was putting words in your mouth.

No I am not...because you were trying to when you posted this:

i suppose next you'll be telling me that 'resettlement in the east' really did mean that european jews were in fact being settled in the former poland and other points east occupied by the germans in the war.

 

[Treacle Toes]

but surely a camp will have more sober people on site, if not its just a piss up anyway and whats the problem?

st pauls certainly does, but they've still decided to ban drinking (and by extension street drinkers)

Yeah, the discussion was about the Brighton camp though.

St Pauls and FS have a policy on alcohol, which pretty much means no visible piss up, people are decanting or drinking in private. This policy wasn't formulated to ostracise street drinkers, it was because the concensus is that the camp isn't a festival, people want the camp to have a decent image so that others free safe to join/visit/engage etc and that there are practical things that need doing day-to-day that require people to be alert and willing to pitch in.

 

[smokedout]

you know its quite possible to do both, people have been managing it for hundreds of years

 

[Pickman's model]

No I am not...because you were trying to when you posted this:

you don't really know what putting words into people's mouths is, do you?

 

[London_Calling]

you know its quite possible to do both, people have been managing it for hundreds of years

There hasn't been this kind of - look, no one is in the tents!!1! - media 'for hundreds of years': you have to play the game without naivity or they'll have you for breakfast.

 

[Pickman's model]

No I am not...because you were trying to when you posted this:

before we go any further down this little alley, i'm not fucking putting words in your mouth, i'm suggesting you're fucking gullible.

 

[London_Calling]

Pickman's - well done, the first row of the week around 9.00am on a Monday. It must make life almost worth living.

 

[smokedout]

There hasn't been this kind of - look, no one is in the tents!!1! - media 'for hundreds of years': you have to play the game without naivity or they'll have you for breakfast.

so site management is being based on what the evenings standard might think - they, not you, set the agenda

 

[Pickman's model]

Pickman's - well done, the first row of the week around 9.00am on a Monday. It must make life almost worth living.

took you fucking long enough to notice it. you're on the same slow train as ever i see.

 

[London_Calling]

so site management is being based on what the evenings standard might think - they, not you, set the agenda

Jesus.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

so site management is being based on what the evenings standard might think - they, not you, set the agenda

I have a friend who told me last night that he had spent several days on the Finsbury Park occupation. He described how the organisation was carried out on an agreed basis between the people involved. He described one such meeting and how the agreements were made in very efficient way with no time wasting. He also said that one of the features agreed was not to have obvious drinking going on because they wanted to create a good image for the occupation and not to give the media any negative stories that could be exploited. He also told me about the large numbers of homeless and hungry people who had gone to the occupation and were being fed each day. He was very impressed, and being currently unemployed will be back there again today and for the rest of this week at least.

 

[Treacle Toes]

so site management is being based on what the evenings standard might think - they, not you, set the agenda

Do you understand what consensus means? Yes, the camps are concerned about image and rightly so. The way to help the movement grow is through outreach...that means having an environment and atmosphere that people from outside the camp feel comfortable to engage with etc. Also, people who are resident on site have the right to feel comfortable and safe. I don't think asking people to be concious and tactful with their drinking is a bad thing.

 

[Treacle Toes]

before we go any further down this little alley, i'm not fucking putting words in your mouth, i'm suggesting you're fucking gullible.

Oh do fuck off PM.

I'll tell you what, the next time you are on either site let me know and I will come and discuss this with you in person. That way I think we will communicate better, context is everything.

I understand people are concerned about how the homeless and street drinkers are being treated...this though just feels like nit-picking.

 

[smokedout]

Do you understand what consensus means? Yes, the camps are concerned about image and rightly so.

so you're happy for the media to set the rules, rules you follow without even being asked. who needs cops when you've got the media.