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#occupy London....

It could be an idea for a lawyer/legal rep to look over the following:

Before the Norman Conquest, the Saxon rule of law granted London exceptional privileges; a Folk Moot met three times a year; the Husting (Danish: hus-thing i.e.-house assembly) - met every week.

In 1215AD, Clause 13 of the Magna Carta stated "The City of London shall have all the old Liberties and Customs which it hath been used to have" (this became Clause 9 of the 1297AD version).

This is one of three clauses of the Magna Carta which remain active today, not yet repealed by the Statute law (Repeals) Act 1969 .

Thus, the legal right (and liberty) for a weekly General Assembly at the site of Paul's Cross, City of London (CoL) appears to still be enshrined by the same medieval laws which give the CoL it's special status today.

The first historically recorded General Assembly was in 1236AD. when the King's Justice John Mansell let it be known that Henry III desired that "the citizens of London be ruled with virtue, that the liberties of the city be maintained, and that any person who vexed the citizens should be grievously punished for the example of others."

This liberty, to grievously punish those who vex the citizens, and the demand that the citizens of London be ruled with virtue, combined with the rights to General Assembly at that site itself, appear to still be enshrined by these most ancient laws of the City of London.

These ancient rights are exactly what Occupy London Stock Exchange at St. Paul's ask for today with their General Assemblies.If the site occupied and currently threatened with removal by the CoL request for High Court injection, even though the CofE has said they could stay is moved to site of St Paul's Cross, it might be far harder to remove them. Also, possibly summons to the various Politicians and Corporations could be made to attend the Hustings/Folkmoot site to answer to the People/Citizens.

*in contrast to the frankly cranky (sorry!) Freemen of the Land view of Magna Carta & what's still lawful/legal!.
 
teahead said:
You're a testy bugger BA! And rude at the drop of a hat... as per Blagsta's query directed at me, do you talk in the way that you write?

I'd certainly quibble with your "revolt against the factory" perspective. Otherwise some of the things you've said here are interesting but hardly the last word on the subject. You're certainly succeeding in sounding clever though. Well done!

In any case the only point I mean to make is that the occupy movement fails to engage with the real drivers behind what's going wrong (not just with capital, surely; not just as a consequence of problems with capital either). To me, democracy and oppositional politics seem hopelessly outdated if you like to look at things in a time frame. From the point of view of processes and systems development, I'd say they've been superceded and co-opted. I'm not in any way suggesting that's the only narrative, only that it's one worthy of consideration. As you point out yourself, subjectivity is inevitably an issue.
Click to expand...

lulz, as pointed out, it's just all waffle, what's the point ?
 
I've got an idea. Instead of trying to challenge the establishment by occupying places, why don't they blow up the Houses of Parliament? I bet no one's thought of that before.
 
smokedout said:
have people been turning up asking to be signposted to drug and alcohol addition (sic) and mental health advice services?
Click to expand...
Any news?
I am aware of individual 'outreach' workers present... though in a non-co-ordinated manner.... Im trying to arrange designated times where 'informed' people could be present as tbh: it is important that any advisory roles involve those in the know... Heaps of advertised projects for example are no longer in existence... I'm co-ordinating with the Pavement mag to ensure copies are available and their listings are up to date...
btw: almost all the people I know there in the 'services' are there in a personal capacity not in the employ of Poverty Pimps....
 
Luther Blissett said:
It could be an idea for a lawyer/legal rep to look over the following:

Before the Norman Conquest, the Saxon rule of law granted London exceptional privileges; a Folk Moot met three times a year; the Husting (Danish: hus-thing i.e.-house assembly) - met every week.

In 1215AD, Clause 13 of the Magna Carta stated "The City of London shall have all the old Liberties and Customs which it hath been used to have" (this became Clause 9 of the 1297AD version).

This is one of three clauses of the Magna Carta which remain active today, not yet repealed by the Statute law (Repeals) Act 1969 .

Thus, the legal right (and liberty) for a weekly General Assembly at the site of Paul's Cross, City of London (CoL) appears to still be enshrined by the same medieval laws which give the CoL it's special status today.

The first historically recorded General Assembly was in 1236AD. when the King's Justice John Mansell let it be known that Henry III desired that "the citizens of London be ruled with virtue, that the liberties of the city be maintained, and that any person who vexed the citizens should be grievously punished for the example of others."

This liberty, to grievously punish those who vex the citizens, and the demand that the citizens of London be ruled with virtue, combined with the rights to General Assembly at that site itself, appear to still be enshrined by these most ancient laws of the City of London.

These ancient rights are exactly what Occupy London Stock Exchange at St. Paul's ask for today with their General Assemblies.If the site occupied and currently threatened with removal by the CoL request for High Court injection, even though the CofE has said they could stay is moved to site of St Paul's Cross, it might be far harder to remove them. Also, possibly summons to the various Politicians and Corporations could be made to attend the Hustings/Folkmoot site to answer to the People/Citizens.

*in contrast to the frankly cranky (sorry!) Freemen of the Land view of Magna Carta & what's still lawful/legal!.
Click to expand...
leaving aside how pointless all this archaic legalism is, you'll need to consider definitions, most notable "citizens of London" are almost certainly only going to include landowners within the square mile, and possibly only the self-same aldermen, freemen and so on that control it all now. Might even only include nobility. It's wishful thinking to expect something that old to recognise 'citizen' in the same way as we do post-enlightenment.

Unless you know different, of course.
 
AKA pseudonym said:
Any news?
I am aware of individual 'outreach' workers present... though in a non-co-ordinated manner.... Im trying to arrange designated times where 'informed' people could be present as tbh: it is important that any advisory roles involve those in the know... Heaps of advertised projects for example are no longer in existence... I'm co-ordinating with the Pavement mag to ensure copies are available and their listings are up to date...
btw: almost all the people I know there in the 'services' are there in a personal capacity not in the employ of Poverty Pimps....
Click to expand...

ETA: I understand this will be rose at the GA on Monday.. can anyone confirm this, as I have people going involved in outreach
 
Something based on custom, which hasn't been custom for several hundred years, isn't likely to be taken hugely seriously tbh.
 
It's not based on custom - the rights of weekly "husting" and assembly at St. Paul's Cross are enshrined in law. It's the earliest known "seat" of democracy in London.It's the traditional place for proclamatioms both civil and religious, a place where Londoners made a general assembly in times of national crisis. The significance of this special place - earliest known democratic assembly in London's and possibly Britain's history - is why I mentioned it. The legal rights of general assembly at the site of Paul's Cross have not yet been repealed, and it's wholly worthy of a mention.

I've been doing some reading into the 14th-17th century use of this unique place of general assembly, and will write a paragraph or three about that soon. You'll discover that that the right of assembly at Paul's Cross was open to all citizens, and that speeches on business ethics and trade were delivered to citizens at that site, as well as controversial religious and political sermons, and discuss how those shaped the political culture of London at that time. I'll quote a few lines from some of those controversial political and religious speeches delivered between the the reign of Elizabeth I until the Civil War, which have survived.
 
Corax said:
Something based on custom, which hasn't been custom for several hundred years, isn't likely to be taken hugely seriously tbh.
Click to expand...
No-one's asking you take the Anthropology of this Place seriously, even though the legal right to assembly is still enshrined in law. I probably do take it more seriously than you because I'm an anthropologist by trade (a nomadologist). Places are important imo. Here's a modern-day assembly, holding general assemblies every week on the same site as the earliest known democratic assembly in London, attempting to evolve our democracy away from the dictates of corporations (1%) and towards representing the people (99%). To me, the spot where Occupy is happening today is an exceptionally important place in this evolution of democratic representation. Feel free to dismiss this knowledge as archaic if you wish. Others might find it imparts a deeper sense of of continuity and belonging.
 
Luther Blissett said:
No-one's asking you take the Anthropology of this Place seriously, even though the legal right to assembly is still enshrined in law. I probably do take it more seriously than you because I'm an anthropologist by trade (a nomadologist). Places are important imo. Here's a modern-day assembly, holding general assemblies every week on the same site as the earliest known democratic assembly in London, attempting to evolve our democracy away from the dictates of corporations (1%) and towards representing the people (99%). To me, the spot where Occupy is happening today is an exceptionally important place in this evolution of democratic representation. Feel free to dismiss this knowledge as archaic if you wish. Others might find it imparts a deeper sense of of continuity and belonging.
Click to expand...
I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not disparaging the idea of the assemblies - I like the concept. I meant taken seriously by the courts etc, taken seriously as a legal argument.
 
'Christina Freeman
From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA. (Ben'

a growing problem, thats why its best to stay dry...
 
Blue Ed and Doug Alexander are both suddenly bibbling about the relevance of the Occupation. Clearly this has been discussed in cabinet and Labour think there are votes in looking like they give a shit. Now, who was it who had 13 years in government when they celebrated deregulated finance and oversaw widening income inequality?
 
treelover said:
'Christina Freeman
From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA. (Ben'

a growing problem, thats why its best to stay dry...
Click to expand...

I raised this issue regarding the Manchester Occupation. people generally flamed me for it. The Manchester Occupation folded shortly thereafter.
 
treelover said:
'Christina Freeman
From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA. (Ben'

a growing problem, thats why its best to stay dry...
Click to expand...
at this time of year i think a wee nip of whiskey's entirely acceptable. and for those who won't reach for the spirits, a couple of cans of tommy cooper isn't beyond the pale.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I raised this issue regarding the Manchester Occupation. people generally flamed me for it. The Manchester Occupation folded shortly thereafter.
Click to expand...

if a camp isnt strong or disciplined enough to cope with a few folk having a drink, (with limitations if agreed) then it isnt really anything

how do you think the squat/free party scene and traveller/festival sites have coped all this time
 
treelover said:
'Christina Freeman
From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA. (Ben'

a growing problem, thats why its best to stay dry...
Click to expand...

I have the funny feeling that their problems run deeper than 'street drinkers'.... bit of a crap excuse to abandon camp.. and what do they mean by strong physical support?? hmm... im sure the street drinkers were there first and ime can be reasoned with...
 
Luther Blissett said:
It's not based on custom - the rights of weekly "husting" and assembly at St. Paul's Cross are enshrined in law. It's the earliest known "seat" of democracy in London.It's the traditional place for proclamatioms both civil and religious, a place where Londoners made a general assembly in times of national crisis. The significance of this special place - earliest known democratic assembly in London's and possibly Britain's history - is why I mentioned it. The legal rights of general assembly at the site of Paul's Cross have not yet been repealed, and it's wholly worthy of a mention.

I've been doing some reading into the 14th-17th century use of this unique place of general assembly, and will write a paragraph or three about that soon. You'll discover that that the right of assembly at Paul's Cross was open to all citizens, and that speeches on business ethics and trade were delivered to citizens at that site, as well as controversial religious and political sermons, and discuss how those shaped the political culture of London at that time. I'll quote a few lines from some of those controversial political and religious speeches delivered between the the reign of Elizabeth I until the Civil War, which have survived.
Click to expand...
If you write something and fit it onto a side of A4 it could be stuck up on the poster walls at St Paul's - people would love it I think. Can you get to the camp? If not I could stick if up.

On the legal stuff though, I think you have to be careful to distinguish interesting legal history from what is legally enforceable right now, otherwise you'll get people's hopes up. I have a feeling courts don't really enforce laws that haven't been used for hundreds of years, even if they are technically still on the books. It might be better to focus on the history of the public assembling there, rather than on the dubious legal ground (unless you can get confirmation of the legal issues) - otherwise you might end up looking like the freemen...
 
Actually im doubting the validity of that 'statement'...
from FB postings @ the Brighton Group over the last 2 hours...
'Great Vibes at Occupy Brighton. All welcome for the GA at 7 and talk at 8!'
Click to expand...

Thanks to all who came to our children's workshop today. The kids made a great banner that says "Children have rights, Brighton kids against war" - their choice. It has been attached to the schnews tent so traffic passing the King and Queens can see it loud and clear. There are also some canvases the kids made with a theme of making a better world, these are on display at camp. Well done lovely children of Brighton. See you next Sunday.
Click to expand...

and from this morning...

Very peaceful night and morning so far :) thanks tranquility - great job xxx
Click to expand...
 
smokedout said:
how do you think the squat/free party scene and traveller/festival sites have coped all this time
Click to expand...

By not having any qualms about dragging troublemakers out for a kicking?

Tricky when you're camped up in a town centre under the watchful eye of CCTV.
 
smokedout said:
if a camp isnt strong or disciplined enough to cope with a few folk having a drink, (with limitations if agreed) then it isnt really anything

how do you think the squat/free party scene and traveller/festival sites have coped all this time
Click to expand...

The squat / free party / festival scene etc. may have had different objectives and numbers, but I bet a lot of the organisers found constantly pissed up people to be a bit of a pain in the arse. I think much of this is a numbers game. If the number of full time "on it" activists is fairly small then it won't take too much by way of disruptive / aggressive behaviour from pissed folk to throw things off balance. Hence I aint too worried about London in this regard, but know it has affected other smaller occs beyond Manchester and Brighton. f Brigthon is anything like Manchester they will be having their days, nights and efforts to engage the public all disrupted by fairly mashed people. Perhaps you can get down there and give them the benefit of your experience of overcoming such obstacles. It might also be of use if you can put together a leaflet on how to win round the public to a cause while pissheads, who appear to be attached to your cause, are staggering around and shouting a lot.
 
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