#occupy London....

[Treacle Toes]

.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Was the GA streamed at St Pauls tonight? Hope so.

 

[frogwoman]

the whole thing seems in danger of becoming an incredibly insular and self indulgent affair, inwards looking and somewhat sub-cultural

(yet any measured/reflective criticism of if is met with howls of indignant rage because those criticising it don't have the means or ability to spend 14 nights on the trot in a tent in central london)

It's interesting cos im talking at the moment to some people i know in the US and it doesn't really seem like that there at all. There are elements of that of course but it seems quite different to the UK both in character and the level of public support it has

 

[Treacle Toes]

the whole thing seems in danger of becoming an incredibly insular and self indulgent affair, inwards looking and somewhat sub-cultural

(yet any measured/reflective criticism of if is met with howls of indignant rage because those criticising it don't have the means or ability to spend 14 nights on the trot in a tent in central london)

Rubbish. I have not slept out one night, yet have participated and been heard in more than 10 GA over the last 2 weeks. This is as 'insular' as the people who do not particpate make it.

You do not need to sleep out. Your critiscisms are best voiced and heard at the GA's. No one is indignant or raging because of critiscism, your attempt to paint a picture of that is shameful tbh.

 

[ddraig]

don't know if you consider this from occupy LA insular?

The Occupy Los Angeles General Assembly split into dueling factions Wednesday evening as a large number of occupiers who felt alienated by the highly structured, long and boring, but largely irrelevant GA , came in and took over the mike, overthrew the process, and made it an open mike session. The GA had been led by a facilitation committee that was far more concerned with process than content. This is a facilitation committee lead by a new core group. The original core group of facilitators that used the process to create Occupy Los Angeles have moved on to other areas. This may be "billed" as a leaderless movement but not only is there something to be said for leadership, there are a lot of advantages to consistent leadership, IMHO.
The original Wednesday GA started on the south side of city hall with the solar stage. After it was overthrown, the facilitators, for a while, reconvened their GA on north stairs before returning to the open mike crowd on the south stairs in the spirit of unity.

http://wlcentral.org/node/2314

 

[love detective]

Rubbish. I have not slept out one night, yet have participated and been heard in more than 10 GA over the last 2 weeks. This is as 'insular' as the people who do not particpate make it.

You do not need to sleep out. Your critiscisms are best voiced and heard at the GA's. No one is indignant or raging because of critiscism, your attempt to paint a picture of that is shameful tbh.

well this was the response i got when i suggested that inviting the likes of shami/liberty to be involved is probably not the best idea

fairly indignant and raging i thought

 

[Treacle Toes]

Your post actually supports my "accusation", confirming that the vast majority of the effort is being put into setting up and maintaining the camp. That rather than using it as a springboard to conduct actions and achieve the small victories that a number of us have talked about the focus is now on simply ensuring the camp remains where it is.

NO it doesn't! It suggests that you haven't thought out how much time and energy goes into setting up and maintaining a camp (now 2) under the conditions these people have and then have time to support everything they want to, in the way they want to!

Small victories? Like what? Have you been down there to either camp? There have been small victories galore.

St Paul's is the only camp who is worried about eviction at this time, yes there is a lot of focus on that as present but for me...there is a lot of value in the process/ride/adventure/learning of it all. I am left wondering what you expect them to have achieved, by now, two weeks into it. Also, why you haven't gotten involved/contributed to the success you are impying they should have had already.

 

[Treacle Toes]

.

 

[redsquirrel]

Small victories? Like what? Have you been down there too either camp? There have been small victories galore.

Then I'll repeat my request for you to list some of them.

 

[love detective]

No indignation, no rage, just my opinion.
I have not given my opinion of shami or liberty getting involved so don't misrepresent me or my posts. Ta..

I was talking about the response of someone telling me to fuck off for expressing concern about inviting the recuperating/recuperated types of liberty along

so telling someone to fuck off for expressing an opinion, in your opinion does not demonstrate a certain amount of rage or indignancy (is that a word?) no?

 

[love detective]

i see you edited your post after i quoted/replied to it

 

[Treacle Toes]

Then I'll repeat my request for you to list some of them.

...and I shall repeat mine ...go down there, engage, observe, volunteer, get involved and witness them for yourself.

 

[friedaweed]

Where's Whally....oops I mean Will??

 

[Treacle Toes]

i see you edited your post after i quoted/replied to it

Only because I didn't realise you had hyperlinked to a particular post etc when I first typed that out above. I thought you were referring to me/my posts, then I noticed the link under the word 'this' and deleted my post accordingly.

 

[love detective]

so, in light of that, do you see my original point?

 

[Treacle Toes]

so, in light of that, do you see my original point?

Erm, this is Urban, people tell eachother to fuck off all the time.

I personally try to save that for 'special' circumstances but other people throw it about more liberally, as is their choice.

I understand you didn't like to be told to 'fuck off', it's dismissive and rejecting...I don't however see it as 'indignance and rage' in the way you have suggested.

 

[redsquirrel]

...and I shall repeat mine ...go down there, engage, observe, volunteer, get involved and witness them for yourself.

I don't live in the UK. So again I ask what victories have been achieved?

 

[love detective]

Erm, this is Urban, people tell eachother to fuck off all the time.

I personally try to save that for 'special' circumstances but other people throw it about more liberally, as is their choice.

I understand you didn't like to be told to 'fuck off', it's dismissive and rejecting...I don't however see it as 'indignance and rage' in the way you have suggested.

you miss the point - i don't mind being told to fuck off - but the point was you made a statement that:-

No one is indignant or raging because of critiscism

I then gave an example of someone being indignant and raging because of a criticism

 

[Treacle Toes]

you miss the point - i don't mind being told to fuck off - but the point was you made a statement that:-

I don't think so.

No one is indignant or raging because of critiscism

I then gave an example of someone being indignant and raging because of a criticism

...some might say you are 'indignant and raging' because of critiscism now.

 

[love detective]

eh?

 

[Treacle Toes]

eh?

You were told to fuck off. You were critiscised because were finding fault with others.

You could be accused of being 'indignant and raging' now because you were told to fuck off and were critiscised earlier in the thread.

 

[love detective]

do you have any idea how you are coming across in these verbal gymnastics to backtrack and defend something that you previously claimed wasn't happening?

 

[Treacle Toes]

do you have any idea how you are coming across in these verbal gymnastics to backtrack and defend something that you previously claimed wasn't happening?

Heh!

Do you have any idea how wounded and upset you sound?

I posted a shout out for people who are interested to go and support the camps.

I am not responsible for you getting told to 'fuck off' nor do I see that as 'indignation and rage' ( as explained, this being urban and all), in short I think you are being overly dramatic, although, I do understand that being told to 'fuck off' is dismissive and rejecting. There are no verbal gymnastics, I have been clear and honest with you.

 

[frogwoman]

ld doesn't seem like he's being indignant and raging tbh, in fact hes being v polite as far as i can see, and i frequently disagree with what he says and how he says it!

i'm sad to hear that people think the occupy london thing is becoming insular etc as well, because it was really positive to see how they linked up with the electricians and other stuff at the beginning ... hopefully this will change with the Nov 30 stuff and some of the major protests coming up? ld did you go to any of the camps and what were your impressions?

 

[love detective]

Heh!

Do you have any idea how wounded and upset you sound?

I posted a shout out for people who are interested to go and support the camps.

I am not responsible for you getting told to 'fuck off' nor do I see that as 'indignation and rage' ( as explained, this being urban and all), in short I think you are being overly dramatic, although, I do understand that being told to 'fuck off' is dismissive and rejecting. There are no verbal gymnastics, I have been clear and honest with you.

why you do you think I sound (or indeed am) wounded or upset because I pointed out to you something that is happening that you claimed isn't happening

 

[Treacle Toes]

ld doesn't seem like he's being indignant and raging tbh, in fact hes being v polite as far as i can see, and i frequently disagree with what he says and how he says it!

I didn't say he wasn't being polite FW. In my world, people don't have to be rude to be 'indignant and raging' though, he is clearly upset at being sworn at, I understand, as I have said already. I don't think that him getting told to fuck off on urban of all places is evidence of 'indignation an rage' either.

i'm sad to hear that people think the occupy london thing is becoming insular etc as well, because it was really positive to see how they linked up with the electricians and other stuff at the beginning ... hopefully this will change with the Nov 30 stuff and some of the major protests coming up? ld did you go to any of the camps and what were your impressions?

How do they know though, if they haven't been and spent time there, been involved etc?

I have been numerous times to both camps. I am back there (at both) on Sunday. I have posted some things already and will post more in answer to your questions tomorrow if that's okay. I am cream crackered just now and off to bed.

 

[Treacle Toes]

why you do you think I sound (or indeed am) wounded or upset because I pointed out to you something that is happening that you claimed isn't happening

Because you posted this:

(yet any measured/reflective criticism of if is met with howls of indignant rage because those criticising it don't have the means or ability to spend 14 nights on the trot in a tent in central london)

....a generalised comment, as if the whole world is attacking you because you criticised or were seen to be critical of something you haven't engaged in properly.

It is unfair and irrational to call the movement 'insular' because a poster on Urban told you to 'fuck off'.

I am in the habit of trying things out for myself (where possible) before I make up my mind fully, I am asking you to do the same here. Nothing more.

 

[Sue]

I didn't say he wasn't being polite FW. In my world, people don't have to be rude to be 'indignant and raging' though, he is clearly upset at being sworn at, I understand, as I have said already. I don't think that him getting told to fuck off on urban of all places is evidence of 'indignation an rage' either.

How do they know though, if they haven't been and spent time there, been involved etc?

I have been numerous times to both camps. I am back there (at both) on Sunday. I have posted some things already and will post more in answer to your questions tomorrow if that's okay. I am cream crackered just now and off to bed.

I don't think love detective is upset at being sworn at. I suspect it's more that he finds it a bit pathetic that you're contradicting yourself and won't admit to it. (And are being quite patronising about about it too.)

Anyway, I've not been to the camp thing, though I did go past it on the bus, mainly because I really have no idea what the point of it is.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I don't live in the UK. So again I ask what victories have been achieved?

Just seen this....

Anyway...I'm off to bed...I will answer for you tomorrow.

Please answer this:

I am left wondering what you expect them to have achieved, by now, two weeks into it?

 

[love detective]

Because you posted this:

....a generalised comment, as if the whole world is attacking you because you criticised or were seen to be critical of something you haven't engaged in properly.

It is unfair and irrational to call the movement 'insular' because a poster on Urban told you to 'fuck off'.

I am in the habit of trying things out for myself (where possible) before I make up my mind fully, I am asking you to do the same here. Nothing more.

jesus fuck, words fail

sorry but i can't engage with either of your two posts above - completely mixed up and verging on hatstand

how on earth do you get the idea that my thoughts about the thing being insular are derived from someone telling me to fuck off on a message board?