#occupy London....

[AKA pseudonym]

The newspaper of Occupy London, The Occupied Times of London was launched this evening. The Indy Media team has worked hard to produce this first issue and issue 2 is already in the works. For those not able to make the launch and pick up a copy you can view it online here: Occupied Times of London you can also download your own copy in PDF format here: Occupied Times Issue One PDF

http://theoccupiedtimes.com/

 

[shaman75]

It was a horrible sight to behold.
His dancing.That kilt. His baggy underpants that he kept flashing about. Horrid.
Maybe he was put there by the police as a special weapon to clear the area. We certainly moved away pretty sharpish.

He turned up halfway through the speakers on Saturday and started playing music. Someone had a word I think.

 

[ferrelhadley]

Claims that one in 10 tents at Occupy London remain empty overnight are based on "rubbish science", a military scientist specialising in camouflaging soldiers against thermal imaging technology has told the Guardian.
He said: "They cannot make the assumption that they have made from those images. The way they are set up, you wouldn't be able to tell if there's anyone in the tent or not, especially if someone is sleeping in an insulated sleeping bag."
....
A camera of this kind would very rarely be able to see "into" a tent, said the scientist, as tent materials are almost always opaque to thermal imaging. A photographer would only be able to detect internal activity if the tent fabric was itself re-radiating heat produced by a warm object behind it – and this in turn would only be possible if very specific camera settings were used.
But the scientist said: "The first thing I noticed when I saw those images was that the camera was on an auto setting." In order for the images to be of any relevance, the photographer would have needed to manually adjust its settings,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/26/occupy-london-tents-rubbish-science

Tents are meant to hold in as much as heat as possible. Its the whole point of modern tents is to keep heat in.

 

[smokedout]

The newspaper of Occupy London, The Occupied Times of London was launched this evening. The Indy Media team has worked hard to produce this first issue and issue 2 is already in the works. For those not able to make the launch and pick up a copy you can view it online here: Occupied Times of London you can also download your own copy in PDF format here: Occupied Times Issue One PDF

http://theoccupiedtimes.com/

hymn sheet for capitalism

 

[AKA pseudonym]

hymn sheet for capitalism

 

[rekil]

Vid of bossyboots voice woman at occupy dame street a few days ago, going on about the dollar then "this has nothing to do with capitalism, nothing to do with socialism" around 4:00. I gather it hasn't all been as bad as this but fucking hell like.

 

[friedaweed]

What's happened to our reporter on the scene??

 

[friedaweed]

Vid of bossyboots voice woman at occupy dame street a few days ago, going on about the dollar then "this has nothing to do with capitalism, nothing to do with socialism" around 4:00. I gather it hasn't all been as bad as this but fucking hell like.

It's about time Mrs Doyle had her say

 

[rekil]

It's about time Mrs Doyle had her say

That's it. That's the voice.

 

[friedaweed]

That's it. That's the voice.

"They're all shiyte."
"Now who'd like a nice cup of tea?"

 

[shaman75]

Went down there tonight. Seems Liberty have offered to help open mediations between the camp and the city and st pauls, as they refuse to speak to the camp. Talk of being served with court papers soon, maybe tomorrow, maybe Monday. There was a lot of different opinions, so they agreed that Chakrabati would come to speak there tomorrow morning before the decision is made.

There is a march tomorrow at 12:30 going past British business who use Swiss banks...

and they read out this global statement.

 

[love detective]

There was a lot of different opinions, so they agreed that Chakrabati would come to speak there tomorrow morning before the decision is made.

jesus fuck

 

[where to]

why businesses that use Swiss banks particularly, are they are worse than Jersey, Barbados etc etc?

i'm finding that the LSX thing is starting to get very inward-looking. that article in the paper about the culture of protests for example, whilst i didn't particularly disagree with it, was a total waste of print imo. surely the paper should be aimed at people OUTSIDE the protest, and not full of regular protester reference points.

i also just heard a pretty bad interview on 5live tony livesay with one of the protestor just before, who despite the direction the interview was going in said when asked what they stood for and what decisions they'd made, boasted that they took 9 days to decide to use the co-op bank for donations !

i dont think the interviewee laid on fist on the issues. maybe worth having crib sheets with 3 agreed points of shocking statistical/ factual info that each of them should stick to during interviews or something.

instead i've found it all very inward-looking. inevitable given the bubble nature of the protest to a degree of course.

 

[DownwardDog]

So they're going to keep on pretending to camp out until we're all living in The Culture?

 

[Orang Utan]

no-one's pretending

 

[treelover]

it would be great if S/P's opened it doors and hosted the new 'Putney Debates'

 

[shaman75]

why businesses that use Swiss banks particularly, are they are worse than Jersey, Barbados etc etc?

i'm finding that the LSX thing is starting to get very inward-looking. that article in the paper about the culture of protests for example, whilst i didn't particularly disagree with it, was a total waste of print imo. surely the paper should be aimed at people OUTSIDE the protest, and not full of regular protester reference points.

i also just heard a pretty bad interview on 5live tony livesay with one of the protestor just before, who despite the direction the interview was going in said when asked what they stood for and what decisions they'd made, boasted that they took 9 days to decide to use the co-op bank for donations !

i dont think the interviewee laid on fist on the issues. maybe worth having crib sheets with 3 agreed points of shocking statistical/ factual info that each of them should stick to during interviews or something.

instead i've found it all very inward-looking. inevitable given the bubble nature of the protest to a degree of course.

I agree. The assemblies seem to be taken up with a lot of decisions relating to the occupation, rather than the issues and things are slow. I guess they are under a lot of pressure and finding their feet. I think the workshops are more issue-based?

 

[Delroy Booth]

First post

I put this on the comments section on Lenin's Tomb a while ago, I would appreciate feedback and critique, thanks!

I remained totally convinced that any sort of peaceful anti-capitalist protest, of the sort that these #Occupy activists are attempting to do, will simply fail. Not because I'm keen on violence, just because if these protests actually get to the point where they pose a tangible threat to capitalist system then the state will just use brute force to stop them. As the article rightly says, unless these groups have a plan ready for how to deal with a concerted attack by the state, then they will come to an end in a hail of tear gas and rubber bullets.

Now I know this sounds alarmist, and many of you may think "this couldn't happen here, this isn't Libya etc" but don't be too sure. Do you think the people who run our nations are any less determined, ruthless and power-hungry than Ghaddafi or Ben Ali? The ruling class will fight to the very last drop of blood, just like Ghaddafi, to protect themselves and the system that empowers them. If the American government is faced with a choice between having to attack, and even kill, its own citizens or having to see captialism systematically dismantled then I believe they will choose the former every time.

They won't give up without a fight y'know, we have to acknowledge this. Now, in the "democratic" west the way they fight back is overtly less violent, but that's not beacuse of their tolerance, but because it's more effective than charging in there head-first, guns blazing. In western liberal societies, first they will try and ignore you, which they did very effectively in the media for a first few weeks of these occupy protests. If you still haven't gone away by then, they will ridicule you, call you hippies etc. If you still persist, the propaganda war will be more intense, claiming that the demonstations are "illegal" or a public health hazard, using legalistic technicalities to crack down on the protests. This is currently the phase these protests are in. Anywhere in the world where these protests are taking place the media have begun attacking them using the worst kind of smear-journalism and propaganda, such as the bogus article in the Telegraph claiming that only 10% of the tents were occupied at the demonstration. If, however, the protests keep their momentum, and if they continue to win public support, at some point the state will have to act, and the final phase will begin: violent crackdown.

This has begun already in some cases, in Australia for example, but Oakland may be a turning point. The latest I heard on Twitter was that the guy hit by the canister is in intensive care and may not make it through. The ramifications of this may be colossal, but I don't want to make an analysis based on twitter gossip, so I'll leave it there. However, in general, because of the overwhelming public support these protestors have, I don't see them just disappearing, I think the state may be left with no other choice but to clear them by force. This article in the Independent ( http://www.independent.co.uk/n... ) mentions that the City of London Corporation is already seeking legal means to force the demonstators outside St.Pauls to leave. How do they react to this? What is the contigency plan? Likewise, in Newcastle the EDL started threatening the protestors, and have made threats to other protests in other parts of the country, what do they do about that? Well apparently in Newcastle one of the Occupy protestors went and made peace with the EDL who turned up there threatening people, apparently exchanging hugs (!) and agreeing to leave it at that, which is a totally different can of worms, but there's an EDL demonstration in Birmingham coming up that could very well end up attacking the occupy Birmingham demo, what's the plan there?

I thought these protestors were being too soft and too peacable when they made the initial concession of not actually attemping to occupy the London stock exchange itself, but instead St.Pauls Cathedral. It opened them up for the line of attack the papers are now persuing, and besides, for all the faults of the Church of England its not the enemy in this particular struggle. So what if attempting to occupy the LSX is illegal? They should've done it anyway. After all, just because what they are doing now is legal, it won't stop them getting arrested and beaten up by the police, will it? The government is quite happy to break the law to put down protests, see Thatcher using serving soldiers to beat up striking miners at Orgreave, ie using paramilitary police tactics, something that is illegal, so hiding behind the law won't help. They'll get nicked either way, they just have to work out what they get nicked for and how to mitigate against it.

I'm not the one with any of the answers, but I'm reasonably sure I can see what the problems are. Is this movement one that will fold as soon as the risk of broken bones and police brutality inevitably rears it's ugly head? Or would such action galvanise even more support and militancy? hard to tell at this stage, but we will find out soon enough.

 

[ferrelhadley]

jesus fuck

There are folk camping out in the cold making themselves heard and there are their intellectual superiors here on urban 75 telling them how they should be doing it.

Occupy for all its faults are out there doing something.

You can fuck off.

 

[love detective]

this is the person who in response to the riots said:-

In very testing circumstances, the response of both the police and Government has been measured and proportionate so far - we welcome this and hope it will continue.

with friends like that.......

but unless i've been in a tent 24/7 for the last couple of weeks I can't possibly pass comment of course

 

[Brainaddict]

Well, it seems you can't *tell* people that they can't trust the establisment organisations - they have to find out for themselves.

I think the main problem with this attempt at negotiation with Liberty is it will waste hours and hours of time that would be better spent on other things. But there we go. This is how people learn I guess.

 

[BigTom]

First post

but there's an EDL demonstration in Birmingham coming up that could very well end up attacking the occupy Birmingham demo, what's the plan there?

Welcome too tired to critique having spent much of last night arguing with freeman of the land about how we deal with an eviction notice!

Anyway, plan for the EDL demo tomorrow.. EDL are not going to be in the same space as occupy as was originally thought. Occupy is in victoria sqaure, next to and directly accessible is Chamberlain Square, where UAF & an umbrella group of all the Mosques around Birmingham (whose name I can't remember) are holding their counter demo. EDL demo will be in centenary square, which is the other side of chamberlain square and cut off by a big roundabout and concrete lumps of buildings.
There will be a reasonable sized group of us at the camp ready should any EDL turn up. We will be there from the morning till the evening, until it is clear that EDL have gone.
We are also in contact with UAF (who aren't much use but will at least put bodies around the camp if it looks like there might be a problem), MDL & other anti-fa groups (who will happily kick the shit out of any EDL)..

We've also been told there will be a large police presence around all three squares.

My prediction: EDL get bussed to centenary square from the station, kettled and then bussed out again. Anyone who wanders over to the camp will see lots of people and act like the cowards they are. If there is an attack then it will be rebuffed.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Welcome too tired to critique having spent much of last night arguing with freeman of the land about how we deal with an eviction notice!

May I ask what the FotL position was? That sounds like an argument that would be...draining.

 

[BigTom]

May I ask what the FotL position was? That sounds like an argument that would be...draining.

it is. some are saying send the notice back with "NO CONTRACT" written on it. Others are arguing that we are in Lawful Rebellion under article 61 of the Magna Carta 1215 and we don't need to obey their laws..
It's the Lawful Rebellion stuff I've been arguing with. This article was repealed immediately, it doesn't appear in the Magna Carta of 1216, let alone the one of 1297 which actually still has 3 articles in force in today's laws (Freedom of the Church, Freedom of the City of London and a Right to Due Process).
Still they claim it can't be repealed.. so I've told them to get 4 barons to petition the king, and then if that doesn't work they can get 25 Barons to seize the King's assetts, as set out in article 61 of the Magna Carta of 1215.. cos that'll help us with the eviction obviously
some of them are proper crazy.. when I pointed out that at dale farm police used tazers to enforce the law, one said something like "yeah but it doesn't justify the use of tazers does it?" like that was some kind of argument in favour of following the lawful rebellion bullshit, like they think their moral force somehow outweighs the physical force / monopoly of violence that the police have..

 

[Delroy Booth]

Good work! I wouldn't be too worried about the EDL per se, like you've said they'll be kettled and surrounded by police all day, and when they aren't I imagine MDL and UAF etc will be all over them, but at the same time be vigilant. it's not the EDL that worry me too much, its the prospect of some random EDL kid breaking away from the main demonstration and doing something crazy that's more worrying. It only takes one nutter with a stanley knife to cause absolute mayhem y'know.

For example, have you seen this yet, from the Occupy Maine protest? A chemical bomb attack by some right-wing nutter? http://www.pressherald.com/news/Chemical-bomb-tossed-into-Occupy-Maine-encampment.html I have a horrible feeling that at some point some NRA-Militia right-wing nutball is going to turn up to one of these events and start gunning people down. It's something we don't generally have to worry about, whereas over there it's a very real danger. Some of these Tea Party types are absolutely seething with rage about the protests, partly out of ideology, but partly out of sheer envy at the fact they've been sidelined so badly.

 

[Delroy Booth]

it is. some are saying send the notice back with "NO CONTRACT" written on it. Others are arguing that we are in Lawful Rebellion under article 61 of the Magna Carta 1215 and we don't need to obey their laws..
It's the Lawful Rebellion stuff I've been arguing with. This article was repealed immediately, it doesn't appear in the Magna Carta of 1216, let alone the one of 1297 which actually still has 3 articles in force in today's laws (Freedom of the Church, Freedom of the City of London and a Right to Due Process).
Still they claim it can't be repealed.. so I've told them to get 4 barons to petition the king, and then if that doesn't work they can get 25 Barons to seize the King's assetts, as set out in article 61 of the Magna Carta of 1215.. cos that'll help us with the eviction obviously
some of them are proper crazy.. when I pointed out that at dale farm police used tazers to enforce the law, one said something like "yeah but it doesn't justify the use of tazers does it?" like that was some kind of argument in favour of following the lawful rebellion bullshit, like they think their moral force somehow outweighs the physical force / monopoly of violence that the police have..

Wow.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

it is. some are saying send the notice back with "NO CONTRACT" written on it. Others are arguing that we are in Lawful Rebellion under article 61 of the Magna Carta 1215 and we don't need to obey their laws..
It's the Lawful Rebellion stuff I've been arguing with. This article was repealed immediately, it doesn't appear in the Magna Carta of 1216, let alone the one of 1297 which actually still has 3 articles in force in today's laws (Freedom of the Church, Freedom of the City of London and a Right to Due Process).
Still they claim it can't be repealed.. so I've told them to get 4 barons to petition the king, and then if that doesn't work they can get 25 Barons to seize the King's assetts, as set out in article 61 of the Magna Carta of 1215.. cos that'll help us with the eviction obviously
some of them are proper crazy.. when I pointed out that at dale farm police used tazers to enforce the law, one said something like "yeah but it doesn't justify the use of tazers does it?" like that was some kind of argument in favour of following the lawful rebellion bullshit, like they think their moral force somehow outweighs the physical force / monopoly of violence that the police have..

Jesus christ. I'd be tempted to evict them myself - I kind of figured that they would have to tone down some of their lunacy when confronted with real world activism. Shoulda fuckin better known better.

 

[treelover]

What on earth is 'Islamic Birmingham'?

 

[BigTom]

What on earth is 'Islamic Birmingham'?

I can't remember the name of the group, it's like the network of all the Mosques in Birmingham, it's called "Islamic Birmingham [something] .. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it but it's not just UAF doing the counter demo (and the muslim group is very moderate and has spoken out against extreme islam in the past).

Sorry should have explained / phrased that better - I'm going to go back and edit it

 

[BigTom]

Wow.

If you've never come across them before it's well surprising that anyone can believe this shit, but believe it they do!
there's a lot of right wingers and bnp types who are into this as well, attracts them for the Queen and Country feel of it, and a return to feudalism of course.

Jesus christ. I'd be tempted to evict them myself - I kind of figured that they would have to tone down some of their lunacy when confronted with real world activism. Shoulda fuckin better known better.

I'd love to tell them to fuck off and go away but it's not going to happen. I can't believe how many of them there are in Birmingham, maybe half of the regular overnight stayers believe this shit, and lots of the day visitors as well..
Someone's going to go to jail for contempt of court if they pursue this line of thinking.