#occupy London....

[love detective]

LD, did you/anyone you know go to the camp yourself? what were your/their impressions if so? all this is a real shame, because it could have been a really good opportunity.

i went along briefly on the Monday after the initial weekend and have to admit I had a pre-conceived idea as to what it would be like and how it would evolve - most of them were reinforced pretty much immediately on arrival - it seemed fanciful & self-indulgent even then to me (although i'm highly skeptical I held off any external criticism of it until now, as felt I should at least give it some time to see how the thing evolved)

In defence people may say well there are links being built up with anti-cuts groups in London, but from what I can see it's the same people linking up with themselves just under different formal labels and then presenting this externally as something happening which isn't really

In short, I felt alienated by the whole thing, like I do with most of these climate camp type things and the left in general - maybe it's just me, but maybe it's them also

 

[frogwoman]

cheers. i know what you mean tbh, especially with the climate camp type stuff.

 

[Belushi]

That was my impression when I briefly dropped by St Pauls. I'm still supportive overall but my doubts about the whole thing are growing. I'll try and go again this week.

 

[butchersapron]

That was my impression when I briefly dropped by St Pauls. I'm still supportive overall but my doubts about the whole thing are growing. I'll try and go again this week.

...and magnify those doubts a number of times for whats happening elsewhere in the country...

 

[Citizen66]

I'm not sure why everyone is being so down on it. It's not like protest of the normal variety ever achieves anything and plenty on here attend those.

 

[Maggot]

the 'average' person in the street in EC1 is not the average person in the street. how many bin men are down there?

It's not a legitimate protest unless you've got a few bin men.

 

[Citizen66]

the 'average' person in the street in EC1 is not the average person in the street. how many bin men are down there?

I'm sure the tourists don't all consist of above average beings.

 

[smokedout]

I'm not sure why everyone is being so down on it. It's not like protest of the normal variety ever achieves anything and plenty on here attend those.

it's not about being down on it. we're constantly being asked to come down, get involved etc. people are just asking why, what relevance does it have to our lives, why is it so significant

to me it looks like a mixture of climate campers and democracy village hippies, a liberal elite and some hippy drop outs. i hope they have lots of fun. theyll get massacred by the press if they are still there on rememberence sunday so they should enjoy it whilst it lasts.

 

[magneze]

so yet again it's reinforced, you can't make any comment on the camp unless you do so while physically attending it?

'we are the 0.001%'

Not really, no. I've not been down yet either. But I found it a bit weird that you thought that posting "jesus fuck" on a bulletin board that is unrelated to the camp apart from a few posters was engaging with the occupation.

 

[Belushi]

Not really, no. I've not been down yet either. But I found it a bit weird that you thought that posting "jesus fuck" on a bulletin board that is unrelated to the camp apart from a few posters was engaging with the occupation.

They proclaim that they are representing us so someone who hasn't been anywhere near the camps opinion is just as valid as someone who sleeps there every night imho.

 

[magneze]

They proclaim that they are representing us someone who hasn't been anywhere near the camps opinion is just as valid as someone who sleeps there every night imho.

Sure, but my point is that it might be worth engaging with the people at the camp over this stuff or posting on their website. Posting on here, whilst entertaining, isn't actually engaging with the occupation. To post on here saying "jesus fuck" then getting a bad response (omg, someone was rude to me on the internet after I swore), then tarring the occupy movement with being not open is just silly. I've read lots of lovedetective's posts and learn quite a bit from them but they must realise that this position looks a bit odd.

 

[Luther Blissett]

Any experienced activist can tell tales of trying to unravel the Gordian Knot of the relationships among mass organizing, sectarianism, left cadre organizations, and ultra-leftism. To describe cadre-based sectarian ultra-leftists as tedious and disruptive is a charitable understatement. Wait! Grab hold of that last sentence and examine it.

Sectarianism, cadre groups, and ultra-leftism are three separate issues. Those successful at juggling these tendencies in a real organizing campaign usually start by understanding that there are differences among ideological tendencies and the people who marry them, and there are differences between structures and styles. Rather than lumping everything and everyone together in a prejudiced and stereotypic way, lets unpack the box.

http://chipberlet.blogspot.com/2011/06/abstaining-from-bad-sects.html

 

[gunneradt]

I'm sure the tourists don't all consist of above average beings.

EC1 isn't in the square mile (or most of it isnt anyway) - its EC2, 3 and 4

 

[Citizen66]

EC1 isn't in the square mile (or most of it isnt anyway) - its EC2, 3 and 4

I was referring to tourists at st Pauls. Which is what I assumed smoked out was referring to.

 

[frogwoman]

http://chipberlet.blogspot.com/2011/06/abstaining-from-bad-sects.html

the problem with that article is that he never says clearly what he's talking about and he confuses a lot of different things. the people who stand up at meetings and read from long leaflets are almost certainly completely different people from those who deliberately get in fights with coppers. he talks about cadre organisations etc, by which he says he means leninist groups, but do the people involved in attacking police etc (who he describes as "ultra-left" and lumps in with spart-type people) could they even be seen in such a manner? And his description about "behaving in ways that bear no relation to reality" - what does that mean? What does it apply to?

Also, re: cadre organisations, among one of the criticisms that people are making on this thread are that the occupy movement has no demands, that its unspoken (ie non-formalised, but still present) power structures lead to a lack of accountability etc. I don't really see how it is relevant to what we're talking about tbh (and i thought it was shit)

 

[frogwoman]

Just got this from a fb friend:

Occupy Brighton have invited Mike Weatherley, Conservative MP for Hove - motivator of the anti-squatting bill, and Sussex Police to attend their General Assembly this Saturday. Apparently they too are part of the 99%.

 

[Luther Blissett]

one of the criticisms that people are making on this thread are that the occupy movement has no demands, that its unspoken (ie non-formalised, but still present) power structures lead to a lack of accountability etc.

Occupy Wall Street published demands. OccupyLSX published demands. Not sure why people on this thread claim no demands have been made.

 

[Citizen66]

Just got this from a fb friend:

Occupy Brighton have invited Mike Weatherley, Conservative MP for Hove - motivator of the anti-squatting bill, and Sussex Police to attend their General Assembly this Saturday. Apparently they too are part of the 99%.

Invited in what respect? To sit around the campfire and munch on mung beans or to be bombarded with rotten tomatoes?

 

[Luther Blissett]

Just got this from a fb friend:

Occupy Brighton have invited Mike Weatherley, Conservative MP for Hove - motivator of the anti-squatting bill, and Sussex Police to attend their General Assembly this Saturday. Apparently they too are part of the 99%.

Meaty dialogue from anti-anti-squatting bill peeps with TPTB. Should make for an interesting livestream.

 

[Citizen66]

Double post.

 

[Citizen66]

Triple post.

 

[Treacle Toes]

who's side you'll be on

Until you explain what the 'sides' are to choose from, I have no way of imagining an answer to your question.

 

[Treacle Toes]

So instead of replying to other posts individually I am just gonna say this....

I will be at the daytime GA at St Paul's tomorrow and later at FS.

Please post your suggestions and/or things you would like brought to their attention.

Please keep them brief and to the point. I am not planning on standing up and reading out your posts. I will either raise points/suggestions to the GA or specifically to the appropriate working groups.

I will make a list of points to raise.

I do understand not everyone can attend meetings or the camps. So to show that I understand I will do this.

I think doing this will also give me a greater understanding of where some people on this thread feel the camps should have evolved to by now.

Please quote and add to this list below:

1: How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure?

2: How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?

 

[treelover]

can they make the live stream more effective, too many people just waffling, sometimes drunk, and more effective communication with the wider supporters, etc...

maybe people who are sympathetic, particualalry those miles away, disabled and not mobile, etc could have say 3 minute videos of their views broadcast at GA's...

 

[Treacle Toes]

Please quote and add to this list below:

1: How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure?

2: How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?

3. Can the livestream be improved?

 

[treelover]

and this: could those who have difficulties getting to the camp, for many reasons have say 3 minute videos of their views/ideas broadcast at GA's, etc....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...ummon-same-fury-for-fat-cats-115875-23522397/

btw, excellent editorial in the Daily Mirror, read by milllions.....

 

[Treacle Toes]

and this: could those who have difficulties getting to the camp, for many reasons have say 3 minute videos of their views/ideas broadcast at GA's, etc....

To be honest the only people I have seen speak for 3 minutes or more is the working groups feedback team, usually second on the agenda of the GA's.

There is the shout out section at the end of each meeting but I think 3 minutes is too long per vid.

Maybe I could suggest they arrange a meeting each week to specifically air/watch videos/read out emails that people can send in. I'd certainly like to see them. I think the reflection would be great and certainly raise issues for discussion/action. What do you think?

 

[Brainaddict]

Please quote and add to this list below:

1: How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure?

2: How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?

3. Can the livestream be improved?

I was just down there earlier and given the problems (2) is addressing it is quite difficult to fit in to the process as someone who just turns up from time to time - I suspect you might not be able to. Anyway the points I would make at the moment would be

4. The Liberty mediation is an attempt to end the confrontation between the occupation and St Pauls/The City of London. This confrontation is one of the most interesting things about the occupation at the moment. You disagree with those in power. Get used to confrontation. Liberty are an establishment organisation who implicitly support the status quo and so see the ending of confrontation as a good thing. You shouldn't. The best thing to do would be to ignore Liberty.

5. There is a bureacratisation of the camp that has happened over the last few weeks. I think some of it is because certain key people are actually trained in administrative/managerial environments. I suspect they don't realise they are producing a level of bureaucracy that is frankly a bit silly. It would be good practice for broader organisation if it were replicable on a larger scale but I don't think it is. So it is a bit of a misdirection of energy. It might be better to take the focus off the formal processes and put energy just into talking to people and making links with those who they can fight with long term.

 

[Treacle Toes]

4. The Liberty mediation is an attempt to end the confrontation between the occupation and St Pauls/The City of London. This confrontation is one of the most interesting things about the occupation at the moment. You disagree with those in power. Get used to confrontation. Liberty are an establishment organisation who implicitly support the status quo and so see the ending of confrontation as a good thing. You shouldn't. The best thing to do would be to ignore Liberty.

5. There is a bureacratisation of the camp that has happened over the last few weeks. I think some of it is because certain key people are actually trained in administrative/managerial environments. I suspect they don't realise they are producing a level of bureaucracy that is frankly a bit silly. It would be good practice for broader organisation if it were replicable on a larger scale but I don't think it is. So it is a bit of a misdirection of energy. It might be better to take the focus off the formal processes and put energy just into talking to people and making links with those who they can fight with long term.

Please summarise these points a bit more BA. Please make them specific suggestions or questions. They are valid points but need redacting! I will not be 'preaching' on anyone's behalf.

 

[treelover]

more communiques, on the big current issues such as Liam Fox/lobbying, directors pay, etc...

these will resonate with the wide public...