Treacle Toes
Time
Perhaps OccupyBrum and it's facebook page needs a thread of it's own? 
#occupy London....
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Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Sadly this is an issue with all the occupations including the London one. So I'm interested. But if there are loads of people here involved in that occupation then maybe it deserves its own thread.Perhaps OccupyBrum and it's facebook page needs a thread of it's own?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
well i asked them and they said "I wrote a funny answer but I guess I'd better be straight, the answer to your question is no. It's an understanding of reality."
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
Yeah, pretty much afaik.
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
I agree with your observations, after posting a news item linking to OWS and how rightwing conspiracy-monger Alex Jones came out against the movement. Someone who obv. supported those kind of conspiracies (Ty) then posted, and eventually the entire (useful) conversation was deleted and I was then accused of causing conflict, accused of arguing, and at least one person would like to see me banned. They want any discussion which includes racism and conspiracies to be held in private multi-user chat, so that it doesn't appear on the group page. I have no idea why, and I have no idea why they don't want to discuss it openly. Not wanting to discuss things openly is completely bizarre.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Treacle Toes
Time
Glad they made it!
London Eye
Active Member
I think it's inevitable that the Zeitgeist films will be branded conspiracy theorising. Jaques Fresco's ideas are certainly eccentric, but I don't think you have to take on board the ideas of either Fresco or his Venus Project of fully automated and technologically ordered cities to understand the structural problems that the third Zeigeist film enunciates. You don't even have to take the first two films seriously in order to understand the structural failings of debt-created banking that is brilliantly explained in the first part of Zeitgeist: Moving Forward.
People have become so indoctrinated to the buzzword conspiracy or "conspiraloon", that they fear even watching such a film in case someone brands them a "conspiraloon" too, and then their reputation as a level-headed, rational and serious person is undermined. We should all be able to watch such films that others are saying is of interest, and then making our own informed and nuanced decision, saying, yes, that makes sense, and, no, that doesn't make sense.
So far, the most level-headed explanations of the banking system's structural failures are the short videos on Positive Money UK which explain the problems without resorting to uptopian solutions, as in the Zeitgeist films. But that's just my opinion. Others should be free to form their own opinions.
People have become so indoctrinated to the buzzword conspiracy or "conspiraloon", that they fear even watching such a film in case someone brands them a "conspiraloon" too, and then their reputation as a level-headed, rational and serious person is undermined. We should all be able to watch such films that others are saying is of interest, and then making our own informed and nuanced decision, saying, yes, that makes sense, and, no, that doesn't make sense.
So far, the most level-headed explanations of the banking system's structural failures are the short videos on Positive Money UK which explain the problems without resorting to uptopian solutions, as in the Zeitgeist films. But that's just my opinion. Others should be free to form their own opinions.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
They are and anyone sensible seems to reject them. And no, you can't really just separate parts off - and certainly not when there's non-loon based explanations out there. The thing is a whole, the same motivations and base assumptions underly the entirety of the work. If you're just looking at banking then there is no need whatsoever to look at zetgeist full stop.
rekil
to menny cranks
A quick search reveals more of the same. I think butchers posted an appropriate response to this guffster a couple of years ago.
Treacle Toes
Time
from memory i watched the first zeitgeist film i think
first bit was about religion, seemed to be saying that all the bad religion does comes from an older religion of sun worshipping types
second bit was evil bankers secretly control the world
third bit was evil bankers were involved in 911
pretty fucking naked stuff from what i recall
first bit was about religion, seemed to be saying that all the bad religion does comes from an older religion of sun worshipping types
second bit was evil bankers secretly control the world
third bit was evil bankers were involved in 911
pretty fucking naked stuff from what i recall
Treacle Toes
Time
Treacle Toes
Time
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
That sounds much like how I remember it. Of course, there seem to be dozens of the fucking things, so whenever you say "well this bit is obvious bollocks for a start" the response is always "ahhh but that's explained in Episode VIII Revenge Of The Zeitgeist".
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
You've given up on the conspiraloon-run occupybrum page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBrum/
AFAIK this is the real Occupy Birmingham UK page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Occupy-Birmingham-UK/154845231274653
I haven't been since Saturday night/Sunday morning, but London seems to be getting a bit split according to my timeline. I hope it doesn't crumble to nothing, but factions want different types of change, end of capitalism/nicer capitalism/sick of fucking bongo's e.t.c.
Treacle Toes
Time
So you were there on Saturday and that was your observation of then? I'll be interested to hear what you think when and if you go back...meaning is that an issue now, how have they moved on since Saturday etc.
Nope; I've given up on the second page you link to as well.
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
The second page? Why not the first page? And why the second page?
I've given up on them both, too many right wing conspiracy nuts.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
I went to the general assembly tonight, There was about 30 or 40 people, mostly young, but some older people, some of the ones staying at the camp I got the impression were maybe street homeless people. Overall, it was much better than I feared it might be. The Facebook row was discussed, I spoke up against anti-semitic conspiracy theories, pointed out their origins in far right groups and stated that they should not be tolerated. There was some agreement, not loads, but interestingly no opposition. No one spoke up for the 9/11 "truth" movement or any of that crap. It was generally agreed that the group should be anti-racist, anti-sexist etc.
There was lots of discussion about camp practicalities that I did not involve myself in as I am very unlikely to be involved with that aspect of things. Most of the people there seemed new to politics and activism and maybe a bit naive, believing the police will protect them if there is any trouble. Again I did not involve myself in this discussion as I figured out that people have to learn through experience.
The only small bit of conspiraloonery that I heard was reference to fractional reserve banking being the main problem, which IME goes hand in hand with some of the more nutty stuff. but I did not speak up here either as explaining Marx and circulation of capital etc would have been too much through a megaphone!
I put forth the idea that the N30 public sector strikes should be supported as well as the N9 education demos, to some agreement.
Most of the actual people staying at the camp just wanted to concentrate on that and did not want to discuss any actual politics beyond "we're pissed off", which is fine as far as it goes at the moment, but will become problematic I think later on if the camp manages to sustain itself and grow. I did state that without having some idea of what they stood for, what they supported, it may be hard to garner support and I suggested sticking to bread & butter issues, such as taking an anti-public sector cuts position, supporting strikes, defending the NHS etc, to have some identity of what they're about, this didn't get a huge agreement but not a huge disagreeement either.
Basically, it has potential to politicise people and i think should be supported, but made clear that conspiracy crap will not be tolerated.
There was lots of discussion about camp practicalities that I did not involve myself in as I am very unlikely to be involved with that aspect of things. Most of the people there seemed new to politics and activism and maybe a bit naive, believing the police will protect them if there is any trouble. Again I did not involve myself in this discussion as I figured out that people have to learn through experience.
The only small bit of conspiraloonery that I heard was reference to fractional reserve banking being the main problem, which IME goes hand in hand with some of the more nutty stuff. but I did not speak up here either as explaining Marx and circulation of capital etc would have been too much through a megaphone!
I put forth the idea that the N30 public sector strikes should be supported as well as the N9 education demos, to some agreement.
Most of the actual people staying at the camp just wanted to concentrate on that and did not want to discuss any actual politics beyond "we're pissed off", which is fine as far as it goes at the moment, but will become problematic I think later on if the camp manages to sustain itself and grow. I did state that without having some idea of what they stood for, what they supported, it may be hard to garner support and I suggested sticking to bread & butter issues, such as taking an anti-public sector cuts position, supporting strikes, defending the NHS etc, to have some identity of what they're about, this didn't get a huge agreement but not a huge disagreeement either.
Basically, it has potential to politicise people and i think should be supported, but made clear that conspiracy crap will not be tolerated.
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