Corax
Luke 5:16
Probably a bit late for that if the NYPD are already on the case protecting “his constitutional right to be here”.
#occupy London....
- Thread starter AKA pseudonym
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Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
Me and my shadowy cabal will get back to you at some point in the future after we've put our heads together.
If you want to get directly involved, please join the Occupy Judaism page on facebook.
You don't get to dictate how US-based Jews address antisemitism on OWS. If you have ideas then share them, but haranguing me about this will get you nowhere fast.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I get to say what i think will backfire, i get to say how the examples you offer are of very different contexts. And you get to ignore it and pretend the objections don't exist. Everyones a winner.
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
You don't have an alternative plan. You just sit there and criticise unconstructively. If you have ideas, let's hear them.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
While I agree with FrowWoman about "truthers" denouncement of capitalism as being limited, I think it is a bit too simplistic to expect them to be "booted out" as I think someone said upthread. The occupations are on public space and make much celebration of it, it is hardly in the spirit of things to get all exclusivist about it.
"We are the 99% minus anyone who we decide to disagree with" just doesn't have the same ring somehow. It is the 99% tag that is sticking, that by definition means the occupation are a broad church. Broad churches need broad discussions, not broad denouncements or broad splits
Further, the "truthers" are just as on to faults of the banking system as many leftists are.
To Luther Blissett and others:
If I was seeking to "deal" with the CTers and lessen the extent to which their wibble may pollute broad anti/non capitalist objectives I would first of all agree that conspiracies do exist and that theorising about them is fine. This is both to show a modicum of respect and wrong foot them. I know I am often taken as a CT apologist on here, which is funny and ironic because elsewhere in the world the CT lot often accuse me of being some kind of dupe for "them". I love seeing them become scrambled when it becomes obvious that I can namecheck just as many obscure "researchers" and whacko theories as they can - and debate the whys and wherefores of each on their own merits rather than blankly accept or reject each as part of a joblot.
Of course, beyond a call for "sound money" and spurious libertarian (i.e capitalist) aims the CTers are very short on solutions compared to anarchists, socialists and greens. All they can go on about is "waking people up". I think the wake up with regards to the failings of capitalism is starting to happen big style. I couldn't give a monkeys about making someone agree with my 911 agnosticism at this particular point.
So, politely it perhaps needs to be let known to CTers that whatever they may think about Luciferianism and George Bush Snr being into child abuse, these are not the arguements to just come out at random with to the public at such a protest. Neither, for what it's worth do I think constant references to "class struggle" and other orthodox left terminology. Debate among ourselves is one thing, but the message to the public needs to be kept simple and probably not too detailed. Stick to the facts in agreed statements.
But we can only request this be done politely. Disassociating a protest from CTers, if that is agreed by consensus, may be politically justified but I would wager it is not all that practically possible.
My attempts to find common ground are not without reason. If splits and arguments are happen they will despirit activists and alienate the public. As it happens I still think pissheads may turn out to be the bigger problem.
"We are the 99% minus anyone who we decide to disagree with" just doesn't have the same ring somehow. It is the 99% tag that is sticking, that by definition means the occupation are a broad church. Broad churches need broad discussions, not broad denouncements or broad splits
Further, the "truthers" are just as on to faults of the banking system as many leftists are.
To Luther Blissett and others:
If I was seeking to "deal" with the CTers and lessen the extent to which their wibble may pollute broad anti/non capitalist objectives I would first of all agree that conspiracies do exist and that theorising about them is fine. This is both to show a modicum of respect and wrong foot them. I know I am often taken as a CT apologist on here, which is funny and ironic because elsewhere in the world the CT lot often accuse me of being some kind of dupe for "them". I love seeing them become scrambled when it becomes obvious that I can namecheck just as many obscure "researchers" and whacko theories as they can - and debate the whys and wherefores of each on their own merits rather than blankly accept or reject each as part of a joblot.
Of course, beyond a call for "sound money" and spurious libertarian (i.e capitalist) aims the CTers are very short on solutions compared to anarchists, socialists and greens. All they can go on about is "waking people up". I think the wake up with regards to the failings of capitalism is starting to happen big style. I couldn't give a monkeys about making someone agree with my 911 agnosticism at this particular point.
So, politely it perhaps needs to be let known to CTers that whatever they may think about Luciferianism and George Bush Snr being into child abuse, these are not the arguements to just come out at random with to the public at such a protest. Neither, for what it's worth do I think constant references to "class struggle" and other orthodox left terminology. Debate among ourselves is one thing, but the message to the public needs to be kept simple and probably not too detailed. Stick to the facts in agreed statements.
But we can only request this be done politely. Disassociating a protest from CTers, if that is agreed by consensus, may be politically justified but I would wager it is not all that practically possible.
My attempts to find common ground are not without reason. If splits and arguments are happen they will despirit activists and alienate the public. As it happens I still think pissheads may turn out to be the bigger problem.
People do not need an alternative plan to point out the flaws in others that is a fundementally elitist and anti democratic position to take.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Crap. The "truthers" (the serious ones anyhow) are right wing. Fuck 'em.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Your legs still not working? What sort of mad logic is this, i have a shit idea, it's shit, if you can't come up with a shitter idea my shit idea wins.
And, for the record you blind clown i''ve told you exactly how to deal with these people. Through the assemblies not your unilateral action.
No they're not, they think we need to return to the gold standard and limit the power of the Jews.
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
OWS's Zionists-at-his-Hamster Sign Man was there with this sign long before OWS. Kristol never bothered to make a film about him until now.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Accidents happen. People slip, break limbs, sustain head injuries etc all the time. Cups of steaming hot coffee get accidentally spilled. Noones fault. just saying
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Agenda clear
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
How do you think OWS should deal with Zionist-Ate-My-Hamster Sign Man?
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
WTF? Zionists-Ate-My-Hamster Sign Man is delusional, but advocating hurting him for being delusional? He's been holding that sign for a very long time afaik.
I don't really care, I don't particularly support the Occupy [insert name here] movement anyway.
AKA pseudonym
Well-Known Member
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
Yes, that's spot on. The top ten CTs originated in far-right US-Patriot anti-federal-govt circles.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform.../browse-all-issues/2010/fall/patriot-paranoia
What far-right Christian televangelist republican Pat Robertson doesn't know about the NWO ain't worth knowing, lol (joke) ..
However, people in UK who 'believe' in the NWO CT or other CTs aren't necessarily right-wing or Pat Robertson-loving Christians.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Nick Griffin is delusional too but I wouldn't tolerate his presence on a demonstration.
past caring
The Cathars were right
Not for being delusional, but because his continued presence facilitates those who wish to tar the protest as anti-semitic. Something that couldn't happen if he was fucked out.
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
If Zionists-Ate-My-Hamster-Sign-Man hadn't already existed, Kristol would have invented him to have a go at the OWS movement and the Democrats anyway. You probably knew that.
Anyway - read Dan's article - they've tried to disinclude/chase him off:
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
You may have a point. Except for ones who ain't of course.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Not at all clear. Having seen just about every bit of CT and anti CT thing going, I don't know what happened with regard to that event and I don't trust anyone who expresses certainty. Anyways, here and now aint the place for it, as I was saying.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
1 out of 2 wouldn't be so bad, but for the second being simplistic and offensive.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Butchers is right, the format for addressing these issues is through the assemblies, though I would ask anyone to avoid calling people "jew haters" with scant evidence to go on. Watch the public drain away.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
**
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Which ones are they? It comes with an entire world view, which is racist and right wing.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Perhaps but he and those like him do exist and therefore present a very real threat to the legitimacy of the movement. What if the Klu klux Klan turn up or the White Supremacists. Should they be tolerated too?
This is a fundamental problem with trying to build a movement that is all things to all people. It is impossible. There has to be at least a minumum of agreed principles and anti racism should be an obvious one. They should take a vote on excluding those who are explicitly racist or reactionary and then act on that vote by warning them off if possible, but by force if necessary.
GEN.Eccentric
Member
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
The focus seems to be on the two upcoming strikes (general and student), the NHS cuts, and anti-war.
this is better than Cartoon Network - they'll start weaving baskets and milking goats any minute
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