#occupy London....

[DRINK?]

Can't wait for the real thing, if they've got this many just for the demo imagine how good it will be when they do it for real

 

[DotCommunist]

Conspiraloons are present at the Dublin one, according to a WSM chap.

Meanwhile, "no party political or union literature or flags" allowed at the demo next saturday.

On the plus side, the 'inner peace workshop' seems to have vanished from today's schedule.

seems a bit...err..non inclusive. Are union members not under the blanket of 'al genders backgrounds etc' then.

 

[frogwoman]

Open your mind man, the economy is fraudulent,the real money is gold and thats all controlled by the zionist!

 

[frogwoman]

seems a bit...err..non inclusive. Are union members not under the blanket of 'al genders backgrounds etc' then.

why do you have to bring class into it, how divisive man

 

[Libertad]

Meanwhile, "no party political or union literature or flags" allowed at the demo next saturday.

Feic 'em then. How the fuck do they expect to 'enforce' that? Wankers.

 

[Lo Siento.]

the thing which is going to mobilise people against the financial and political classes in general are the actions of those people. it's not a case of rallying people around a set of abstract notions, it's the actions of people in the city and in parliament which are themselves fomenting disquiet and dissent. this disaffection may be reflected in initiatives like occupy london - but those attracted by this weekend's activity seem to be a curious melange without any real analysis of the situation beyond a vague 'down with this sort of thing' and with an unusually high proportion of conspiraloons. while you wouldn't expect people to turn up with a fully formed and documented analysis of where we are, how we got where we are and where it's hoped to be in six months time, it's depressing that *at best* you suggest this occupylsx business can produce 'a very broad base of activists available to help out with a wide variety of more practical things'. it's long been my view that we have fucking activists coming out of our ears, that activists are the last thing anyone needs, and that activism is something which has brought the british left (of whatever hue) to the poor state it's in now. activists, a sort of poor man's professional revolutionaries, are in my opinion the greatest obstacle to a positive and effective revolutionary social movement. in addition, it's by no means more activity we need, but activity which includes and does not exclude, activity in which anyone can take part, activity which shows what is possible.

Take any social movement in history and there were people in it who were more or less active. I'm not saying "brilliant, more people to sticker "do something" gorillas all over the place!" at all. I totally disagree that "the activists" are the greatest obstacle, for whatever their faults, if there really was the basis for a revolutionary social movement waiting to surge forth, then the activists would be swept aside, an utter irrelevance. There isn't, and in that lies their continuing presence.

For all the criticism, they aren't preventing people from carrying out the activity we need. They're engaging in gesture politics against a symbol. That's not going to change the world, but there could, potentially be some positive side effects.

 

[Treacle Toes]

have seen GA statement (believe it may have been posted here already)

imo... we need to recognise that people may not be used to these 'passing the stick' processes....
we alienate people by such 'discussion processes'... hence the global #occupy protests break up into smaller groups so as to explain the decision making process....

Alienate? A few people didn't like it because they were not sure what was going on at first because they didn't understand the hand signals being used? Easy solved then, more signs and a short exaplaination at the start of each assembly. I personally don't think this discussion process alienates people, it's easy to learn, it's also easy to join in without having to stand up and make a song and dance. Nobody is gonna make you do jazz hands if you don't want to afterall!

Remember the first protest you were involved with???...
. its all about learning from each other.. not disenfranchasing people who are new to the scene???
anyhows minor detail... Im just bored defending cliche activists....

I agree it's a minor detail, which is why I am a bit as to why others are making sure a big deal of it. I also think that if the hand signals being used are being blamed for putting people off, those people are being really picky! I suspect it's more to do with other issues tbh.

 

[butchersapron]

A few points which i don't expect to go down very well.

The last time there were substantial assemblyist movements were in Spain and Portugal in the 70s and 80s on the docks and in the factories. They were enterprise based rather than territorial (you could attend the assembly and put your points but only workers could vote). What kept them going, what made them live was small victories - a boss moved off a line, a compulsory hours overtime removed, a sacked mate re-instated. These small victories and the way they were organised became the default setting, they became the workers common sense, how people thought. The threat of an assembly became enough to get things done. What price some small victories now? Well, there are people whose homes are being repossessed right now, auctions of their possessions taking place right now. It's an open door - the chance to get mobile and build up real networks based in practice (no need for everyone to go) and kick past the process/content stuff that's starting to creep in. I know we're not supposed to have any demands, but lets have some results eh?

 

[Lo Siento.]

I agree with a lot of what pickman's model says but I want to stress that I think the term "political class(es)" and "financial class" are fairly meaningless. It confuses what 'class' is to mix it or apply it to a group of people on a whim. Does it make sense to talk about a "military class" or "manufacturing class"?
It also leads to two dangerous ideas:
1. If we had MPs only serve one term (i.e. not be a class) things would be better.
If MPs had to perform a non-politics role for X years before they were allowed to MPs things would be better.

2. 'Bankers are the problem' / 'Finance is the problem'.

Back in the 1930s the problem was seen as being an international finance problem, and Britain needed to look to tariff protection within the Empire to sort it out.
In the last recession of the 1980s the idea was that old, heavy 'non-value adding' industry (coal) was the problem. What Britain needed to do was restructure and reform, become like Switzerland or Germany, let money go to new high-tech industries and retail.
Once again this crisis is being blamed on 'finance'

We shouldn't single out a struggle against finance and leave the rest of the capitalist system unexamined or 'leave that for that'. It has to be done at the same time, otherwise the non-finance side the manufacturing, retail, agricultural, services wing of the ruling class can organise itself into action knock out the excesses of finance capital, steal the goodies for itself but impose the costs onto the w/class all in the name of fighting the 'financial class'.

We need to start consolidating our ranks, actually listening to and trying winning back the disaffected young people, expelling the renegades, trying to extend the idea of nationalisation and socialisation in single-hander and small business industries/sectors, trying to isolate those who want to extend jail for 'benefit fraudsters' from our ranks, refusing to talk with Labour councillors unless they talk sense,
applying pressure on those on our side not to start letting houses, take voluntary redunancy, use 'saving for children's university fees' as an excuse, investing in shares, , stopping the boom in small businesses is rent insurance companies, try to get thinking in terms of mass participations (millions ideally) [mass boycotts of university examinations, non-payment of utility bills with specific demands for prices, non-fare taking of public transport, strike sympathy actions]

It's those types of things in Greece that have really allowed people to claw back some things there.
Without some support from the rest of Europe - i.e. us - Greek people will lose.

We need to start thinking as the producers' class - that's not 'the 99%' vs 'the bankers'. Our enemies are much wider than the '1%' for a start the 10% (at leasT0 below them make up the ruling class.

Also, if strikes are going to win, then blockades, protests and sit-downs will have to be a part of them.

Don't disagree with any of that. Doesn't bring us any closer to achieving any of it.

 

[butchersapron]

Also, expel the pacifists

 

[butchersapron]

Also, expel the pacifists

No one biting on that one

 

[redsquirrel]

What price some small victories now? Well, there are people whose homes are being repossessed right now, auctions of their possessions taking place right now. It's an open door - the chance to get mobile and build up real networks based in practice (no need for everyone to go) and kick past the process/content stuff that's starting to creep in. I know we're supposed to have any demands, but lets have some results eh?

Yep this was what I was talking about when I mentioned the libraries. Rather than standing around in the middle of London why not occupy places that actually matter - local services that are getting closed down, repossessed houses etc.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Also, expel the pacifists

No one biting on that one

Well I was just about to say that this seems a more important issue/point of discussion, likely to divide and or alienate people, as opposed to the hand signals used in assemblies.

Violence vs non-violence...it has been under discussion at at least one assembly I attended. There was no consensus.

 

[shaman75]

Apologies if it's a pearoast. I've only just come across it

http://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBritain/

Is this the non-facebook version? http://www.occupybritain.co.uk/

 

[Treacle Toes]

 

[butchersapron]

Violence vs non-violence...it has been under discussion at at least one assembly I attended. There was no consensus.

There's only one way to find out...

 

[shaman75]

Yep this was what I was talking about when I mentioned the libraries. Rather than standing around in the middle of London why not occupy places that actually matter - local services that are getting closed down, repossessed houses etc.

They could do that though couldn't they? People could go down, suggest these ideas at the assemblies and try to organise separate actions.

There are a lot of good ideas on display here, but the place to voice them is surely going to be at the occupation itself? It's there until December as I understand (circumstances permitting).

 

[butchersapron]

Now, that level of not being organised puts me off, forget the loons and that.

 

[butchersapron]

They could do that though couldn't they? People could go down, suggest these ideas at the assemblies and try to organise separate actions.

There are a lot of good ideas on display here, but the place to voice them is surely going to be at the occupation itself? It's there until December as I understand (circumstances permitting).

The whole point is that the occupation extends everywhere - people putting ideas on here are part of it. I will certainly bring this up at the Bristol thing but the lack of bodies makes it moot - doesn't mean the idea(s) can't be picked up by those in London or elsewhere.

 

[BigTom]

Yep this was what I was talking about when I mentioned the libraries. Rather than standing around in the middle of London why not occupy places that actually matter - local services that are getting closed down, repossessed houses etc.

My best hope for this now (looking at it from the outside) is that it becomes a base from which actions are launched. But the immediate signs aren't looking good.. there was this that happened yesterday:


GuyAitchison GuyAitchison
Just arrived at #occupyLSX. 114 tents. Few hundred ppl. Plan is to picket stock exchange tmrw 7am.

Then the @OccupyLSX feed made a now deleted tweet which said something like "there are no plans to picket the stock exchange. We do not disrupt hard working commuters, that is not our style"..

Which caused a bit of a shit storm, for obvious reasons.. there's clearly some splits in the camp between those who simply want to sit in the square in an isolated protest, and those who want to do other things as well.

I hope that a contingent from the camp will go to support the sparks on Wednesday, but as I didn't hear anything of the stock exchange picket this morning, I'm thinking that didn't really happen, so I can't see anything going on on wednesday..

 

[BigTom]

The whole point is that the occupation extends everywhere - people putting ideas on here are part of it. I will certainly bring this up at the Bristol thing but the lack of bodies makes it moot - doesn't mean the idea(s) can't be picked up by those in London or elsewhere.

Yeah, ditto for Birmingham.. 2 tents and 5 people stayed overnight.. I'll be down there for the first time today, and the first general assembly is on Wednesday, so it'll be interesting to see how many people attend.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Whats the 'sparks' thing people are referring to?

 

[butchersapron]

Whats the 'sparks' thing people are referring to?

Have a read here KT

 

[rekil]

Feic 'em then. How the fuck do they expect to 'enforce' that? Wankers.

They have appointed Sean Creagh, a business studies student from Deansgrange in the south of county Dublin, as their liaison with the Garda Síochána, the Irish police force.

I'm guessing that this guy, a fucking business studies student how are you, will scuttle off in his high vis jacket and inform the nearest copper about any naughty signs/pamphlets and whatnot.

Business fucking studies.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Have a read here KT

Ah good one! Dont know how I missed that.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Might have known you would leap to their defence you weird freak

Might have known someone would indulge in unsubstantiated denouncements on U75.

What is wrong with defending the occupation movement at this early stage?

No matter what people do there will always be some smartarse to say how wrong they are.

I've seen a lot of conspiranoid wibble on about how the occupations are secretly backed by the likes of George Soros as another NWO distraction.

The reactionary right are, of course, indulging in their use of "anarchist" as synoymous for "evil" and nasty ill informed "get a job" sneers.

So it is only to be expected that the jargon fetish "considerably more left wing than you" faction are wheeling out the "they don't mention class in quite the precise way I would like" whinge.

It's so pedestrian in it's predictability.

 

[butchersapron]

Might have known someone would indulge in unsubstantiated denouncements on U75.

What is wrong with defending the occupation movement at this early stage?

No matter what people do there will always be some smartarse to say how wrong they are.

I've seen a lot of conspiranoid wibble on about how the occupations are secretly backed by the likes of George Soros. Now we are getting the "they don't mention class in quite the precise way I would like" whinge.

It's so pedestrian in it's predictability.

How dare people have questions and use their critical judgment eh taffers. Odd for someone coming from your camp to argue people should just accept what they're given.

 

[frogwoman]

Might have known someone would indulge in unsubstantiated denouncements on U75.

What is wrong with defending the occupation movement at this early stage?

No matter what people do there will always be some smartarse to say how wrong they are.

I've seen a lot of conspiranoid wibble on about how the occupations are secretly backed by the likes of George Soros as another NWO distraction.

The reactionary right are, of course, indulging in their use of "anarchist" as synoymous for "evil" and nasty ill informed "get a job" sneers.

So it is only to be expected that the jargon fetish "considerably more left wing than you" faction are wheeling out the "they don't mention class in quite the precise way I would like" whinge.

It's so pedestrian in it's predictability.

there's a difference between "not using class in the way i would like" and zionist/rothschilds/conspiracy bollocks. these people poison everything they fucking touch. it's not unreasonable at the time of one of the worst recessions in history to not wish these types to hijack - and potentially destroy - any fledgling movement

 

[Libertad]

They have appointed Sean Creagh, a business studies student from Deansgrange in the south of county Dublin, as their liaison with the Garda Síochána, the Irish police force.

I'm guessing that this guy, a fucking business studies student how are you, will scuttle off in his high vis jacket and inform the nearest copper about any naughty signs/pamphlets and whatnot.

Business fucking studies.

Tbf. the Gards will need someone with the ability to read the pamphlets.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

How dare people have questions and use their critical judgment eh taffers. Odd for someone coming from your camp to argue people should just accept what they're given.

I don't know if that is a deliberate mis-read. I don't mind people thinking class should be more overtly mentioned by the Occupations. It's a debate to be had and it's happening here as much as anyone else.

I was reacting to a terse post aimed at me from SL:

"Might have known you would leap to their defence you weird freak"

What questions was s/he raising there? None. Just some vapid insults. Certainly no critical judgement. Not that you managed to post some dismissive against Spanky for that. Are you being a tad selective in who you denounce?

I am not advancing a case of "accept what you are given". I do think it's too early to dismiss the movement out of hand as a few too many people seem to be starting to do.
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