Northern Independence Party

[lazythursday]

Yes some won't but what would be the point of tens of thousands signing up to follow if they weren't in some way supporters?

Well I dunno, I follow quite a few political figures who I find interesting but I disagree with, and politicians in various parties who I have absolutely no intention of supporting any time. I imagine quite a few on the left still in Labour, in other parties/groups, and not living in the north will also be part of that 40,000. Not sure how much you can read into Twitter followings in terms of active supporters.

 

[Rimbaud]

It's amazing how many of the attacks on NIP on social media revolve around a theory that they aren't really northern but woke metropolitan southerners pretending to be northern.

It's astonishing that they can't comprehend northern socialism being a thing, despite northern urban areas being the base of left wing politics for the last 200 years and the majority of northern constituencies voting for Corbyn with an increased vote share, at least in 2017.

The ignorance and stereotyping of the north as backwards EDL supporting goons is a product of the north south divide. The centralisation of national media in London repeats and confirms their own stereotypes and most national discourse is the London based media class talking to itself, and recently the right wing have started using the North as a convenient bogeyman which will never accept metropolitan left wing politics despite all evidence to the contrary - which they get away with because the London left secretly shares their stereotypes about the north and northerners are largely absent from these discussions and don't have the opportunity to speak for themselves.

The fact so many blueticks in Twitter can't seem to process the existence of a northern socialist party is why we need a party which is explicitly of the north.

 

[lazythursday]

It's amazing how many of the attacks on NIP and social media revolve around a theory that they aren't really northern but woke metropolitan southerners pretending to be northern.

It's astonishing that they can't comprehend northern socialism being a thing, despite northern urban areas being the base of left wing politics for the last 200 years and the majority of northern constituencies voting for Corbyn with an increased vote share, at least in 2017.

The ignorance and stereotyping of the north as backwards EDL supporting goons is a product of the north south divide. The centralisation of national media in London repeats and confirms their own stereotypes and most national discourse is the London based media class talking to itself, and recently the right wing have started using the North as a bogeyman which will never accept metropolitan left wing politics despite all evidence to the contrary.

The fact so many blueticks in Twitter can't seem to process the existence of a northern socialist party is why we need a party which is explicitly of the north.

I think my first comment on the NIP was something along the lines of I hope at least it puts an alternative northern voice in the media to bigoted vox pops, and the reaction to the party has underlined the need for this even more. The myth that the entire north voted Tory and is entirely populated with elderly racists needs puncturing.

 

[marty21]

Where’s his proposed border? The Thames? The Trent? The Tyne?

The Lea.

 

[Rimbaud]

I think my first comment on the NIP was something along the lines of I hope at least it puts an alternative northern voice in the media to bigoted vox pops, and the reaction to the party has underlined the need for this even more. The myth that the entire north voted Tory and is entirely populated with elderly racists needs puncturing.

Yes it is a fucking ridiculous myth - Corbyn would have won in 2017 and 2019 if it was only the North voting, and we would have never had a Tory government, probably ever.

In the North East, 16 constituencies returned Labour MPs, only 6 returned Tory MPs.

In the North West, Labour won 41, Tories won 32.

In Yorkshire and the Humber, Labour won 28 and Tories won 26.

And this was seen as an amazing Tory result in the North. 85 Labour Seats vs 64 Tory seats.

The South East had 74 Tory seats and 8 Labour seats, London had 49 Labour seats and 21 Tory seats. So 95 Tory seats vs 57 Labour seats in London and South East.

I haven't looked it up, but I suspect metropolitan north was probably close to 100% Labour with Tory votes more in small towns and rural areas, meaning the metropolitan northern areas are more overwhelmingly left voting than London.

 

[The39thStep]

I think my first comment on the NIP was something along the lines of I hope at least it puts an alternative northern voice in the media to bigoted vox pops, and the reaction to the party has underlined the need for this even more. The myth that the entire north voted Tory and is entirely populated with elderly racists needs puncturing.

That's going to upset some posters on here

 

[teuchter]

Yes it is a fucking ridiculous myth - Corbyn would have won in 2017 and 2019 if it was only the North voting, and we would have never had a Tory government, probably ever.

Same is true of London, isn't it?

 

[The39thStep]

Utterly bizarre that a supporter of her Majesty's opposition( who might have bigger fish to fry) would write an article for a mainstream newspaper having a go at a small party formed a couple of weeks ago over the internet. Free publicity.

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[Rimbaud]

Same is true of London, isn't it?

The South East voted overwhelmingly Tory, while Greater London voted Labour.

Tory votes in the North were rural and small town. Urban areas like Manchester, Tyne and Wear, Merseyside, Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford etc were virtually Tory free zones.

There seems to be a correlation between urban areas and left wing politics, and apart from London, the north is actually far more urban than the south, despite being used as a rhetorical foil to metropolitan London left wing views.

 

[teuchter]

The South East voted overwhelmingly Tory, while Greater London voted Labour.

Tory votes in the North were rural and small town. Urban areas like Manchester, Tyne and Wear, Merseyside, Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford etc were virtually Tory free zones.

The point is to do with the stereotypes that the 'London media class' (or whatever you choose to call it) are claimed to hold.

I don't think that there's a general feeling that 'the north' is populated by elderly racist tories.

There might be a feeling that 'provincial england' is. And I'd guess that a few metropolitan northerners might also share that.

 

[Rimbaud]

The point is to do with the stereotypes that the 'London media class' (or whatever you choose to call it) are claimed to hold.

I don't think that there's a general feeling that 'the north' is populated by elderly racist tories.

There might be a feeling that 'provincial england' is. And I'd guess that a few metropolitan northerners might also share that.

It seems to be informing the Labour Party's policy under Starmer though.

 

[killer b]

Utterly bizarre that a supporter of her Majesty's opposition( who might have bigger fish to fry) would write an article for a mainstream newspaper having a go at a small party formed a couple of weeks ago over the internet. Free publicity.

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

I thought all the 'they're rattled!' chat was just chat, but actually it looks like they're rattled.

 

[strung out]

Politically it's more of a city vs small town and provincial divide isn't it? London, Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Swansea, Exeter, Brighton, Canterbury and Bath didn't vote Tory either, so for those of us not in the north but living in cities, it always seems a bit strange to hear talk about this political divide between the two halves of the country.

 

[The39thStep]

I thought all the 'they're rattled!' chat was just chat, but actually it looks like they're rattled.

He's not entirely big time is he ? What could be complete coincidence ie Times writer stuck for articles responds to rising Twitter issue actually looks like he is a sock puppet for the Labour leadership.

 

[steeplejack]

I think the Tories specifically went after a "rugby league supporting, working class" demographic in the north of England and towns like Workington and Barrow turning blue was genuinely astonishing in 2019. Well, from a distance.

Of course ludicrous to abstract that to those towns being representative of the north as a whole.

 

[The39thStep]

I think the Tories specifically went after a "rugby league supporting, working class" demographic in the north of England and towns like Workington and Barrow turning blue was genuinely astonishing in 2019. Well, from a distance.

Of course ludicrous to abstract that to those towns being representative of the north as a whole.

Does anyone remember that book from yonks back about working class conservatives =Angels in Marble?

 

[Rimbaud]

Politically it's more of a city vs small town and provincial divide isn't it? London, Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Swansea, Exeter, Brighton, Canterbury and Bath didn't vote Tory either, so for those of us not in the north but living in cities, it always seems a bit strange to hear talk about this political divide between the two halves of the country.

That's true - and the reason for the North being more left wing than the South overall is probably because the North has more big cities. Aside from London, the biggest city in the South is Bristol - which is smaller than Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Bradford, Liverpool and technically bigger than Newcastle but still a much smaller urban area than the Tyne and Wear conurbation.

The reason for this is probably that proximity to London inhibits the growth of urban areas in the south, and the industrial revolution led to the growth of industrial urban areas in the north.

But it isn't just about the political divide. It is also about disparity in infrastructure and investment and increasing political centralisation that goes hand in hand with economic centralisation. I also see it as a necessary response to the UK's increasing authoritarianism and the difficulty of getting a party which isn't overrun by the Oxbridge/Westminster/Fleet Street social milieu who sabotaged Corbyn's Labour. The power of this social circle is also what is driving UK's new authoritarianism. Starmer is one of them, going to a fairly elite grammar school and Oxbridge. He wants to be accepted by his pals so won't oppose them effectively.

So it is better to abandon Labour and form a fresh political base outside of London to prevent that from happening again.

 

[Brainaddict]

That's true - and the reason for the North being more left wing than the South overall is probably because the North has more big cities.

Not sure it's just that. I don't know the figures but surely the south east outside London has a big middle class in the proper economic sense - either owners of business assets or earning enough that they are accumulating major assets besides their house. The stockbroker belt is real, except it's also fund managers, laywers, higher corporate management, senior civil servants, tech industry winners etc.

 

[Rimbaud]

Not sure it's just that. I don't know the figures but surely the south east outside London has a big middle class in the proper economic sense - either owners of business assets or earning enough that they are accumulating major assets besides their house. The stockbroker belt is real, except it's also fund managers, laywers, higher corporate management, senior civil servants, tech industry winners etc.

Yeah also true - I think urban living lends itself more to collective socialist politics though, also people in small towns are more reliant on mainstream media to inform their worldview.

A lot of the owners of businesses in the North are indeed based in the home counties. Been going on since the industrial revolution.

 

[Dom Traynor]

40000 followers. Not sure what the conversion rate would be into activists on the ground. Hartlepool will obviously be the immediate priority for them, they'll need to think carefully about the council elections. However, if they could harness a fraction of that into local community activity or target some key areas for community activity, linking up with existing self help groups they could possibly make a transition from social media to real political intervention.

Love your parodies

 

[Wilf]

This isn't a reply to anyone in particular, just an observation/bucket of cold water. Seems to me the NIP has 2 fundamental problems, firstly, the electoral system. Labour is half way to Pasokification, but is being held up by first past the post, which leaves it as still the only alternative government. It would have to be with SNP support and it isn't a very likely government at the moment, but still it sits there, occupying a space. The other is that NIP is no Syriza. As far as I can tell it hasn't emerged out of northern working class communities, doesn't have union backing and isn't likely to become a 'movement'. It feels like a 'project' for a small number of activists - nothing wrong in that, given that many small parties start that way, but not really a formula for growing deep roots.

On the ''northern socialism' thing: is that a 'thing' or are we talking about a social democracy that was specifically labourist, municipal and union based? There may have been more of that in the north and at times it 'felt' northern, say in the resistance to Thatcher. Maybe it was eroded earlier in working class communities in the south, but is there anything uniquely northern about the thing itself? Ultimately, the issue is about building resistance in working class communities, workplaces and elsewhere.

 

[mauvais]

This isn't a reply to anyone in particular, just an observation/bucket of cold water. Seems to me the NIP has 2 fundamental problems, firstly, the electoral system. Labour is half way to Pasokification, but is being held up by first past the post, which leaves it as still the only alternative government. It would have to be with SNP support and it isn't a very likely government at the moment, but still it sits there, occupying a space. The other is that NIP is no Syriza. As far as I can tell it hasn't emerged out of northern working class communities, doesn't have union backing and isn't likely to become a 'movement'. It feels like a 'project' for a small number of activists - nothing wrong in that, given that many small parties start that way, but not really a formula for growing deep roots.

On the ''northern socialism' thing: is that a 'thing' or are we talking about a social democracy that was specifically labourist, municipal and union based? There may have been more of that in the north and at times it 'felt' northern, say in the resistance to Thatcher. Maybe it was eroded earlier in working class communities in the south, but is there anything uniquely northern about the thing itself? Ultimately, the issue is about building resistance in working class communities, workplaces and elsewhere.

FPTP isn't immutable and the continued slippage into no-choice Tory rule in England may mean its days are numbered, though I suspect quite a big number. Someone much better qualified than I can comment on that.

On whether there is a route to an NIP success under the current system, you are looking at it as absolute and literal in its aim - secession through parliamentary means - when a legitimate outcome is probably 'just' an effective protest and an impact on the discourse. They're already succeeding in this, IMO - just sending all the melts into a self-destructive frenzy is a win in my book. UKIP had almost zero parliamentary electoral success but you wouldn't charge them with impotence.

On whether it has potential to be a movement, northern identity, substantial or not, is far stronger than almost anything in the south, with a possible exception of the South West. I distrust identity as politically useful so I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole but I think what it is to be northern is something you and other onlookers don't sufficiently understand. Imagine a form of Scottish or Welsh nationalism but without structural conditions defining what exactly that means. Meanwhile you are looking for something fundamentally structural (like class) as a unifier, and in many ways for good politics it makes sense to do so, but it is not necessary. Again just look at the broad demographics of far right support.

 

[killer b]

The other is that NIP is no Syriza. As far as I can tell it hasn't emerged out of northern working class communities, doesn't have union backing and isn't likely to become a 'movement'.

Wasn't Syriza started by a group of Greek academics?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

40000 followers. Not sure what the conversion rate would be into activists on the ground. Hartlepool will obviously be the immediate priority for them, they'll need to think carefully about the council elections. However, if they could harness a fraction of that into local community activity or target some key areas for community activity, linking up with existing self help groups they could possibly make a transition from social media to real political intervention.

For my sins I listened to the interview with the NIP founder on Novaramedia. He talked a lot of sense but did say that Hartlepool would be mainly a digital campaign because of COVID. They are great at Twitter but we know that isn't enough...

 

[chilango]

For my sins I listened to the interview with the NIP founder on Novaramedia. He talked a lot of sense but did say that Hartlepool would be mainly a digital campaign because of COVID. They are great at Twitter but we know that isn't enough...

Dunno.

For us, and we'd want to build, sure.

But if they're aiming for a UKIP type impact?

Not so sure. Did UKIP ever have anything on the ground? Genuinely don't know.

 

[The39thStep]

Dunno.

For us, and we'd want to build, sure.

But if they're aiming for a UKIP type impact?

Not so sure. Did UKIP ever have anything on the ground? Genuinely don't know.

Well they weren't bound by covid restrictions in byelections or other elections.

 

[killer b]

Seen stuff saying canvassers are allowed to canvas (in teams of two) from this week? Difficult to say how welcome they'd be right now though.

I'm also not totally sure whether canvassing does very much anyway, in comparison to other political tools now available. I reckon you'd probably be better spending the time you would have spent canvassing doing a minimum wage job and spending the proceeds on some facebook adverts.

 

[Brainaddict]

Yeah, I gotta say that I tried canvassing for Labour (despite not being a member) and it felt like a very poor use of time, except for the get-out-the-vote aspect, i.e. making sure the people who already like you turned out. A paid or volunteer leaflet drop might be helpful as people like to feel that you are making an effort. Alas I agree that facebook ads will probably be more effective (alas because giving more money to the monster and knowing you'll mostly be outspent by the right wing is a bit grim).

 

[killer b]

I'm not even sure what point there is in a GOTV operation tbh, I've participated in loads of them and at best have managed to get a couple of people who were probably going to vote anyway to go to the polling station 20 minutes early. It gives activists something to do I suppose - in fact, the camraderie building aspect of canvassing is probably quite important for maintaining local groups.

 

[Wilf]

FPTP isn't immutable and the continued slippage into no-choice Tory rule in England may mean its days are numbered, though I suspect quite a big number. Someone much better qualified than I can comment on that.

On whether there is a route to an NIP success under the current system, you are looking at it as absolute and literal in its aim - secession through parliamentary means - when a legitimate outcome is probably 'just' an effective protest and an impact on the discourse. They're already succeeding in this, IMO - just sending all the melts into a self-destructive frenzy is a win in my book. UKIP had almost zero parliamentary electoral success but you wouldn't charge them with impotence.

On whether it has potential to be a movement, northern identity, substantial or not, is far stronger than almost anything in the south, with a possible exception of the South West. I distrust identity as politically useful so I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole but I think what it is to be northern is something you and other onlookers don't sufficiently understand. Imagine a form of Scottish or Welsh nationalism but without structural conditions defining what exactly that means. Meanwhile you are looking for something fundamentally structural (like class) as a unifier, and in many ways for good politics it makes sense to do so, but it is not necessary. Again just look at the broad demographics of far right support.

I suspect people may well vote for some for PR, provided it was a genuinely proportional system, unlike the wet fart version the liberals sold their souls for last time. Trouble is, getting to the point where such a referendum is offered. The Tories certainly won't offer it, so it would have to be a hung Parliament with Lab + Lib + SNP getting a majority (assuming Scotland is still in the UK). It's a bold claim, but I'd say the tories have already won the 2024 election, so that scenario doesn't even become a mathematical possibility till 2029.

As to not understanding northern identity and being an 'onlooker'... I was born in Rochdale and now live in Middlesbrough, in fact I've never lived anywhere other than the North. Also, I'm not 'looking at it as absolute and literal in its aim - secession through parliamentary means'. Haven't even considered that, my comments are purely about whether NIP can re-establish any kind of social democracy without Corbyn/northern socialism.

An ideal scenario would be the NIP getting a few thousand and giving Labour pause for thought. I don't think will happen, ,tbh - Labour are a lost cause. I'd be more excited to see something like the Durham Socialist Clothing Bank moving in a political direction and perhaps putting up council candidates. That's not going to happen, for a number of reasons, not least of which is it's tied in to union support and thus Labour.