Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Yoga? Martial Arts?
my zen training - 100 days of meditation
- Thread starter Jazzz
- Start date
Yoga? Martial Arts?
Exactly.
I've been to weddings in thailand where parents of my mates have flown over to see their son get married. The sight of 60+ year olds sitting on the floor for up to an hour is awe-inspiring, you can see the pain in their eyes as they try so hard to do as the locals are doing. Shifts in position frequently. But they always manage it. Fucking hard work for westerners. Never mind old ones!
Yeah, for sure. But also just simply practising a sitting position for its own sake. I have put off trying yoga for about 10 years now... but it seems to me that all my time in thailand has helped me move towards an eastern body and away from my western body. Interesting to observe.
But i have to say again, i think for meditation one needs to avoid pain, and be comfortable.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Maintaining correct posture is far more difficult than it seems. I remember it being one of the main difficulties of meditation (for me).
"Its only sitting down, it cant be that hard", I thought, but it was pretty difficult to stay in correct posture, at first at least.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
I agree, but I think there is also a period of adjustment to maintaining correct posture, and there will be some amount of pain involved, if only for a while. I know there was for me.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
A good friend of mine is of japanese ancestry, but he was born and raised in Western Canada. He could barely touch his knees when he was twenty, much less his toes.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
It is a cultural thing, not a biological thing.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
That's the point I was trying to make. I know lots of asian people born here who couldn't get into a lotus position to save their lives.
If they were born in canada, they're westerners. I was talking about an eastern/western distinction, not asia or north america.
But what is the objective for doing 'correct posture', and who has declared it to be correct?! How can one posture be declared to be the correct one for everybody?
Surely the only correct posture is a comfortable one.
Going back to meditation itself, there's an interesting article here on how human beings have been hardwired to emphasize the negative, being cautious and prone to anxiety - as these are highly adaptive traits when it comes to survival.
I see meditation about temporarily (at least) helping to suspend the hardwiring, and allow us to enjoy life for a moment - and hopefully meditation practice can allow more of that enjoyment to seep into our daily life even when not meditating...
I see meditation about temporarily (at least) helping to suspend the hardwiring, and allow us to enjoy life for a moment - and hopefully meditation practice can allow more of that enjoyment to seep into our daily life even when not meditating...
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
I am using the term 'correct posture' as it is used by Shunryu Suzuki, and Zazen posture in particular, which is a full lotus.
Using posture correctly will help you breathe correctly.
You don't want to be too comfortable or you wont be meditating, it wont work properly, your mind will wander.
Correct posture is one of the most basic and essential parts of meditating.
The objective is to be able to breathe properly in order to obtain mindfulness
Yeah, but it's all too strict. Who says that you can't meditate properly without 'correct' posture? And on what authority? And since when was meditating about breathing 'properly', whatever that actually is?
Assuming meditation is about observing the thoughts that come from the mind, or having no thoughts at all, then what does posture or breathing contribute that we must have? And how crazy is it if the same thing is fixed for everybody.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Its nothing to do with strictness. It is the right way to do it because that is how it is most effective. You need to breathe properly, from the bottom of your lungs. To do that you need to sit properly, in order to be able to breathe from the bottom of your lungs.
It is how meditation has been taught for thousands and thousands of years, in pretty much most schools of thought in Buddhism. Well, actually, I take it back, it is everything to do with strictness and discipline, but you and your lazy western expat mind is always going to put yourself, your own comfort and stupid beliefs before that, so convinced that you must be right because you have thought it, and that is why you are never ever ever going to get it right.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, I must agree with Dil about this. Using your body effectively has to be an integral part of effective meditation, because our minds take input from the state of our bodies. Our motivation and emotions are affected by it. Good posture will cause the release of neurotransmitters that will enable you to focus your mind more effectively – and consequently that will allow your brain to control your body more effectively. It's a positive feedback loop between the mind and the rest of the body.
Meditation isn't just about observing your thoughts, or at least that's not its ultimate aim. It's more about achieving a state of total awareness in which your focus is so fully on the present that ideas from the past don't intrude and cause thoughts.
Meditation isn't just about observing your thoughts, or at least that's not its ultimate aim. It's more about achieving a state of total awareness in which your focus is so fully on the present that ideas from the past don't intrude and cause thoughts.
Wait a minute though. Is meditating about focussing the mind? That sounds strange to me. As does the brain 'controlling' the body. These are two active conscious actions, and that sounds unmeditation-like to me.
And, you say we should be so fully focussed on the present, that ideas and thoughts don't intrude. Well, is pain not that very thing? Is the pain from sitting in a most weird position not doing this intruding? And you say the main objective of meditation is to be so fully focussed on the present - can i ask why one would want to be so in the present moment if this is the objective?
It seems strange to me hearing about meditation for the masses, as if there's one correct way to do it.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
But it sounds to me that you don't really understand the purpose of meditation. Pain, for instance can be ignored. It is perfectly possible not to even let pain enter your consciousness, just as it is to ignore sounds.
The input is still there in our brains, for the sound or pain, but we're not paying attention to it. Now, we are only partially in control of our attention – our unconscious emotions also control how we focus. By placing the body in the optimal position, we are giving the best opportunity to our conscious brain to focus without the interference of emotion (emotions can be produced directly by the position of the body, they are the most 'primitive' of our control mechanisms – babies' movements and focus are largely controlled by their emotions, as their brains have not yet developed a mind to do it).
And that is what meditation is – an 'unfocussed' focus with the mind uncluttered by anything except the new signals coming in from the senses, and not reacting to those signals, not giving them meaning, merely letting them happen. And if thoughts drift in, that's fine too – again no conscious reaction to them, just observation (our unconscious reactions of course still take place – you can meditate while exercising. It is a state of pure observation, where the conscious mind is as aware of everything that is going on around as it can be but does not interfere. ( in fact, ultimately, the idea of it interfering loses meaning.)
This practice trains you to control your focus consciously, not letting your unconscious emotions decide what you will focus on. Hence the idea that meditation can make you feel free. You may do this by focusing on one thing – or more ambitiously, focussing on everything equally. I've only ever tried the first form of meditation. It is hard enough. My meditation comes with a sword in my hand.
ETA: The pain will go away with practice. You are in pain because of the decades of bad habits your body has slipped into. But if you try to meditate from a slouching position, you will never get anywhere because you're not allowing your internal organs to operate to their best, and that means that they will be sending signals to your brain that will be triggering automatic emotional response.
If you look at how babies sit, they have great posture. It is as if we're born with good posture, then we proceed to unlearn it.
Well, you can always enlighten me then! Earlier on in this thread i pointed out that objectives of meditation are more important to know than the practice itself. For one can then do the practice in the way that leads to those objectives.
I have found that a lot of western people are often pretty rigid and narrow in their acceptance and understanding of what meditation is, hence my questioning frame of mind on this thread. I'm surrounded by people who meditate where i live, and places to do meditation, and it's often in the discourse when out and about in town. For something that has such great objectives it seems strange to me when westerners bang on about how it should be done, this way, that way, no not that way that's not meditation you fool, and blah blah blah, a lot of which seems to directly contradict the aims of meditating in the first place. I don't mean you here mate. But plenty of western people come to where i live to do meditation. One thing that is often told to me is that posture should be an individual thing, and as you recognise, meditation can be done while exercising. One friend of mine runs up the mountain, and by the time she gets to the top and has to come down she's totally in a meditative state brought on about by the jogging. So much for lotus postures and stuff!
ETA: The pain will go away with practice. You are in pain because of the decades of bad habits your body has slipped into. But if you try to meditate from a slouching position, you will never get anywhere because you're not allowing your internal organs to operate to their best, and that means that they will be sending signals to your brain that will be triggering automatic emotional response.
If you look at how babies sit, they have great posture. It is as if we're born with good posture, then we proceed to unlearn it.
We proceed to unlearn loads of stuff thanks to the conditioning all the adults put us through when growing up.
Personally i've managed to easternise my body a bit from practice from living in thailand. I'm quite happy sitting in most postures. But extending what you say about the bad habits westerners get into over their bodies, it would seem that our internal organs are not allowed to operate to their best due to poor postures in daily life. That's bad news for many!
Why can't you lie down and meditate? Why can't you sit on an armchair with legs at right angles at the knees, arms lightly resting on the side bits, back straight against the back of the chair, and just looking forwards? Very comfortable, and no internal organs stretched or out of place.
So much to be said about how to meditate, yet meditation is really about doing nothing! The more complicated it is, the more it seems to contradict itself to me. I would have thought that a typical westerner would need to approach meditation using different ways than a typical easterner.
No, i'm not sold onto this idea about how meditation should be done, and that this and that rule must be observed.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Its not a rule, nobody said it was a rule.
Why is the Buddha often depicted sitting in a full lotus?
Why is the Buddha often depicted sitting in a full lotus?
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
And nobody said that it is the only way. Some schools teach mindfulness through walking, for example.
I was talking in particular about the teaching of one particular person, Shunryu Suzuki, who practised zen. One of the essential teachings of Zen is posture. It is where you start. It doesn't rule out practicing mindfulness in your everyday activities, in fact, this is encouraged.
I was talking in particular about the teaching of one particular person, Shunryu Suzuki, who practised zen. One of the essential teachings of Zen is posture. It is where you start. It doesn't rule out practicing mindfulness in your everyday activities, in fact, this is encouraged.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You can meditate while making any move that you have learned, so it doesn't require conscious intervention. If you're performing a complicated task that requires consciousness to make decisions, you can't. And lots of people use going for a walk as a means of meditation – whether they know it or not. IME performing an action makes meditation easier.
I agree, Fela, that there is no one position to sit. But there are ways to avoid sitting – slouching, for instance, or sinking into a comfy armchair. I see no reason in principle why you cannot meditate lying down.
What you say about objectives is interesting. I'm guessing the people where you are use the technique to train themselves to focus on particular tasks or objectives. You can focus on anything you like, really.
My earlier post was an attempt to explain what you are doing when you meditate – you are freeing your motivation from your emotions, giving your conscious self more control over your actions. Different people will explain what they are doing in different ways. Many use metaphor. I prefer to look at the body processes and what you are doing to them.
I agree, Fela, that there is no one position to sit. But there are ways to avoid sitting – slouching, for instance, or sinking into a comfy armchair. I see no reason in principle why you cannot meditate lying down.
What you say about objectives is interesting. I'm guessing the people where you are use the technique to train themselves to focus on particular tasks or objectives. You can focus on anything you like, really.
My earlier post was an attempt to explain what you are doing when you meditate – you are freeing your motivation from your emotions, giving your conscious self more control over your actions. Different people will explain what they are doing in different ways. Many use metaphor. I prefer to look at the body processes and what you are doing to them.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is absolutely right. I'm not suggesting you should put yourself through agony – that would be self-defeating. Basically, each individual needs to find a way to sit (if they are meditating sitting down) that is comfortable(ish) and not slouching. Some people need to learn good posture before they can start serious meditation sitting down, I'd have thought. Not everyone can jump in to a full-on meditation. They may have bad habits to unlearn first.
Personally, I practise different sitting postures from the martial art I do, and my focus is on keeping the posture right for the ten minutes or so that I do it. But mostly, my meditation is my martial arts training.
Probably because that was the way he was sitting. But does it mean the rest of us have to do that?
No rule is the best rule.
I will happily reply to you when you're being civilised, but not any other time.
Ah well, is mindfulness different to meditation? Or, more pertinently, does mindfulness have the same objectives as meditation? If so, then that backs up my feeling that there's no need to bust your body to bits if it's a creaking western one. Just learn how to drop the mind, or at least give it a go.
I asked my mate who is very practised over meditation today. He did mention that the lotus posture was important for the chakras, the energy fields, keep the organs in comfort. But, and if this is the way, fine, when i ask anybody about the objectives of meditation, it seems to me that there are any number of postures or ways to be in the act. Whether it's mindfulness or meditation, what matters, as i see it, is the objectives.
You see, it comes back to objectives again. And yes, it seems fair to me that slouching will cause problems.
I had it pointed out to me that i had been engaging in meditation for over ten years by my mate, even though i had no idea or even a glint of consciousness that that was what i was doing at the time. It opened my eyes. In all my readings since, it just seems to me that it's the objectives that count. Do people meditate, a la lotus posture, for the benefits of actually meditating, or do they meditate as a training for the rest of their life when they're not paying attention to meditating? In other words, why do we meditate? What's the point? Just to do what people have done for hundreds of years, or to make their lives empty of suffering?
Now, you say freeing yourself from emotions, well, that to me is a big part of meditation. Or, rather, freeing oneself from identifying with them. In other words, getting that bloody mind quietened. My mate told me today that he spent 12 days in the lotus position, and it was interesting hearing about his whole retreat thing again. I can't, or rather don't have the motivation, to do that kind of 'proper' motivation. Yet opportunities here abound for me. But i prefer to cultivate my own ways of dealing with the mind's control over me.
I also think it's fascinating watching my mind come up with its own thoughts, trying to prod me into reaction, trying its best to control me. Fuck off basically! But if you tell it that, then it'll dig in. Dropping it is the best way. Allowing it to drop. And i don't need no lotus to do that!
My mate told me that when you feel pain from sitting like that, that the pain is illusory. He went on, in a similar style to what dillinger said to me earlier in the thread, although in a far more civilised and polite manner, about the need for the lotus position in terms of chakras and energy fields, which made sense.
But he also said people were getting things like thrombosis by trying to live through the pain of lotus. Lotus, to me, was by and for eastern people with supple bodies.
What are the objectives of meditation?! If they're to still the mind, and gain awareness, then perhaps the act of conducting mindfulness is a better option. And then, it means you can be in any position you want, and you can benefit. Yeah, that's my kind of style!
31 down. yesterday was hard, there had been some difficulty the previous day and I was all over the place. But, I still sat for half an hour. I think this is the training aspect. It's not all clarity and oneness and peace. Not every time. Certainly not yet for me, anyway. But still gave it my best shooting. When we were young did we feel like brushing our teeth? I don't think so. But if your parents did their job you were made to, and eventually it becomes so automatic that you might not actually remember doing it this morning.
