Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I think to become one with oneself, is to become accepting of the judging mind, but also to recognize that it isn't the totality of who we are. It's a part of us, a useful tool, but not the only thing.
my zen training - 100 days of meditation
- Thread starter Jazzz
- Start date
I think to become one with oneself, is to become accepting of the judging mind, but also to recognize that it isn't the totality of who we are. It's a part of us, a useful tool, but not the only thing.
I disagree, i don't think the judging mind is part of us, individually i mean. That's the bit which was conditioned into us through our upbringing, through culture and society, and often religion. It is the bit given us by society in all its wisdom (or not). Meditation offers a way to begin the process of deconditioning oneself from this judging mind. Masters i always presume have managed this totally, and for all time. I think that depends on one's environment, although i know that's not a zen thing to say. But some environments (often at the workplace) are just not conducive to being zen-like!
And, i don't see it as becoming one with oneself. I see it more as discovering who that self is, and who it isn't. And from that one can become one with life, nature, the natural world, cosmic existence, timeless energy, whatever. But not one with oneself, or with one's society, but one with the universe!
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I actually think the whole self-discovery thing is a bit of a blind alley. Simply just be, and get on with doing that. You discover the self through action in the world, not introverting your consciousness.
And that last sentence of mine... i feel this is an opportunity to begin a new 'politics'. When people act according to life, not conditioning. Perhaps meditation is one of the methods that gradually are increasing the numbers of people around the world who see the illusion of the media-reported way of life.
Jazzz for pm...! What's your first agenda? To provide free meditation classes for all citizens?!
Jazzz for pm...! What's your first agenda? To provide free meditation classes for all citizens?!
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
All our behaviour is conditioned fela. We don't come with a pre-set collection of behaviours when we're born, we learn them through interacting with others.
This is why i think it's useful to consider one's objectives before the method of getting there. Because yes, blind alleys are often met. Usually from trying too hard. Doing, not being.
But if you know the objective, then let that be the guide for method.
And introverting anything must be a blind alley. We have to be dropping stuff, not changing it, certainly not that radically.
But i think to learn to just be, requires a process over a period of time of doing things, to get the experience to then learn how to drop it. I mean, i think it unlikely there is any shortcut to be being.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Very true.
Are you really meaning all our behaviour is conditioned? If so, i can't agree that.
That would mean we are unable to decondition certain habits of behaviour. It would mean that we have no chance of acting totally through our own choice.
I'm not suggesting at all that we are born with any kind pre-set behavioural pattern. I think we 'learn' our behaviour and language from our environment, which, which seems to be what you are saying too. But this 'learning' is what i say conditioning is. How often are children allowed to explore the world they're in, rather than the world the adults through family and teachers impose upon them? And this imposition keeps on coming each generation. If we can't stop the conditioning by the adults onto the kids, then we can't break the cycle. So perhaps mediation, zen, and a few other eastern 'methods' can lead western populations into a more positive time. But whatever, people need freedom to discover, not conditioning of thinking and behaving.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So you're just conditioning kids to meditate instead of say, play football?
What behaviours aren't a result of our interacting with others, fela? Which bits of our behaviour aren't conditioned?
What behaviours aren't a result of our interacting with others, fela? Which bits of our behaviour aren't conditioned?
I did mean originally to say, that yes, we learn from interacting with others, but we also learn from reflecting upon our experiences in life, and finding thinking and ideas that we never had before. We learn, but we also explore and discover for ourselves. That is not conditioned behaviour, surely!
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
How do you think we learn to reflect? Conditioning.
While there is argument over the types of interaction between genes and environment, and that yes there probably are biological behavioural drives to basic survival needs (eating, then later sex...and there is a strong argument that everything else is built on those two things)...but the way we express that, is mediated through how out behaviour is conditioned.
This doesn't mean we can 'decondition' ourselves, either. It does get harder as you get older, but it's still possible, it just takes a lot more work.
While there is argument over the types of interaction between genes and environment, and that yes there probably are biological behavioural drives to basic survival needs (eating, then later sex...and there is a strong argument that everything else is built on those two things)...but the way we express that, is mediated through how out behaviour is conditioned.
This doesn't mean we can 'decondition' ourselves, either. It does get harder as you get older, but it's still possible, it just takes a lot more work.
No. Not to meditate at all. That was if we couldn't change things with the kids, which i'm pretty sure i made clear enough. It was the alternative method to be used with adults, as it happens now anyway.
If adults seek meditation and to achieve certain benefits to their lives by dropping things, then it makes sense to perhaps try and not give so many things to the kids that they will then want to drop themselves when they become adults. If by meditating we're only dropping our conditioning, then to save a load of hassle, don't give the conditioning in the first place. But no, kids get it all the time.
Mind you, it keeps meditation teachers in gainful employment...
The process of reflection i'm talking about has as its objective to free oneself from one's conditioned reaction, and instead use contemplation, experience, intelligence, wisdom to throw new light onto things, to respond uniquely to each situation.
By choosing to respond in one's own way based on a critical evaluation of the context, we operate outside of any conditioning we've received. That's the way i view conditioning. To have it, you must by universal law, have the opposite too. Ie, unconditioning, or deconditioning. It seems to me it's simply impossible to have all of something as being conditioned. Otherwise, from what can it have been conditioned?
I also say that altering our diet can bring about subtle or even deeper changes to our attitudes and behaviour. Conditioned behaviour suddenly is dropping itself by its own accord because of food and drink intake. Conditioned behaviour to me is what we perceive society want of us. Unconditioned behaviour is when we are just being, acting according to each situation that arises in a being kind of way.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
But...these things are also conditioned, learned. The process of internal reflection you have is one that you have learned. You can't operate 'outside' your conditioning; you can train yourself to recognise how your conditioning affects you, but your conditioning isn't something you can just disconnect from; it's what makes you, you.
What universal law? That for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction? That doesn't apply to human psychology.
You're fooling yourself if you think you can somehow see 'outside' yourself, via meditation or any other process. You can't. You cannot see yourself as another person sees you. The most anyone can do, as I said, is see how their conditioning affects their behaviour, and if they need to/want to, and are able, to change that.
It's why I said the 'search for the self' is a blind alley. You are yourself, you are yourself every day of your life. As The Oracle says to Neo in the Matrix:
'You didn't come here to make the decision, you came here to find out why.'
I am always myself - the question, the search, is why I am myself. What are the things that make me act the way I do?
So, according to the oracle, what about the people who are always making decisions? Presumably they're not finding out.
Perhaps they can't see enough to be themselves. What you describe leaves no room for change or evolution, everything is conditioned!
You ask: "What are the things that make me act the way I do?"
In my understanding of terminology here, things that make you act the way you do are your conditioning.
But if you ask: To this situation, in what ways can i respond? then you are acting outside of conditioning. Unless you argue that food and nature can condition us.
I have learnt how do do the process of reflection yes, the mechanics and procedure for what to do must be learned. But not the object and interest of what is being reflected about, no. The means to reflect, learned, allows one to gain insights and wisdom, acquired.
My conditioning is not me at all. Here perhaps is where we are diverging, over who the 'you' is. My real me is beyond my conditioning. Also, my conditioning threatens to suppress the real me.
Contemplation and meditation lead to insights and wisdom that one gains from experience and reflection, and away from conditioned behaviour, thinking, and reactions.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
You aren't tho. The act of asking yourself the question will be learned, and conditioned, behaviour. A person who never questions their actions won't suddenly do it; they have to train (condition) themselves to do so.
So how did the 'real me' develop? In a vacuum? In some other dimension? This is the kind of twaddle that self-help books that bang on about the 'authentic self' talk about - that somewhere in your psyche there is this idealised version of yourself that is somehow immune from all external factors, and just appeared, and never changes. It's based around the Platonic view of the universe, and it's as wrong today as it was 3000 years ago.
The fact that you can't see - or won't accept - that you are what your life has made you, that your reactions, your thoughts, are a product of your life, is a far bigger hurdle to overcome to self-awareness than diet or anything else.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
How come you're still so painfully unaware?
By paragraph:
In the first one you say you can condition or train yourself. I've been talking about being conditioned by others.
I'm not talking from what i've read in any self-help books, or any such 'twaddle', or any platonic philosophies. Not any philosophies in fact. I'm talking from my own experiences, which include everything that's come my way in my whole life. Exploring life is different to reading up and knowing various theories or philosophies.
Your last paragraph only says what you see about me. I'm very happy with my life and who i am and why i'm here. I couldn't be like that if i put restrictions on my approach which you indicate i do by not accepting this or that.
And self-awareness is tremendously helped by diet, and choice of foods. Feed the body, and feed the mind and heart. I would also add that the influence of one's environment (work and home and out and about) and attitude and exercise are important factors too. By improving any one of them, it can lead to improving the others. All are linked, to suggest otherwise is to deny the whole concept of zen...
Whatever zen says it is, it is. So be it, according to zen...
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
This is exactly the sort of crap I'm referring to.
xes
F.O.A.D
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
You're not actually responding to what I've written here...
And the fact that you can't even see the restrictions you put on yourself...
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
innit
fela fan's quest for self awareness seems to be having the opposite effect...
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
It is pretty funny to see it happening.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
OK, again...
It doesn't matter if you have or haven't read Plato, or any self-help books. The stuff you are writing is exactly the same as the things they say.
You've arrived at the same set of ideas, probably via the same route of thinking that a part of you is somehow immune to the world, and it doesn't make them any less wrong-headed. Just because you haven't read Plato doesn't mean that your thinking isn't the same. Because I have read Plato, I am able to identify Platonic thinking in others. It's one of the advantages of not being dismissive of philosophy - genuinely original thought is pretty hard to come by, and knowing what other people have written about the subject means you can identify the same kind of thinking in yourself and others.
And you can be utterly happy with restrictions on your life. In fact, not knowing the restrictions can be a positive thing in itself - not being able to see your chains means that you aren't aware of how they bind you, and providing you don't try and act outside of those restrictions, you can be happy. Most religious people I've met are pretty happy, and religious belief, no matter what any of it's adherents will tell you, is a hugely restricting thing.
I've been talking about both.
You never did seem short of knowing myself better than me. I'll let you carry on with your theories. There had been a civilised conversation for a while there, so i'll take that as a positive.
It doesn't really matter if i come to the same ideas and discoveries as those you read about in the self-help books. What matters is that those ideas matter to me, and if you want to call them twaddle, then that is what they are to you.
You seem to forget that the same information can be reacted to differently, by different people yet both be correct. Your twaddle is my meaning. Be zen about it why don't you?
It doesn't really matter if i come to the same ideas and discoveries as those you read about in the self-help books. What matters is that those ideas matter to me, and if you want to call them twaddle, then that is what they are to you.
You seem to forget that the same information can be reacted to differently, by different people yet both be correct. Your twaddle is my meaning. Be zen about it why don't you?
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
There is no meaning or self and all your ideas are just shadows in a cave.
I live in a context where instead of reading this or that philosopher to see how others are thinking and to relate that thinking to my own, i talk to living people about their ideas and thinking about philosophical and spiritual matters, exactly the thrust of this thread i believe. I can then adopt or adapt or reject or choose the bits i like to add to my own. So, the very process that you tell me i am dismissive of, is in fact a process i am involved in every week of every year. It's just that i use different reference points to the ones you do.
And i'm lucky, i come across some genuine thinking and ideas and ways of living to get me reflecting and developing my own set of behaviours and thinking. And the ideas i come across are from living humans, not dead ones. Contexts and times change, we evolve, so no bad deal to compare ideas with the alive as well as the dead...
And of course, since i live in a different context and environment to yourself, our views would naturally diverge at times. This is the zenness and suchness of life...
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
You keep talking about reflecting on your own ideas and developing them, but when you talk there is no evidence of it there. It is the same old blinkered stuff you have been saying for years.
