my zen training - 100 days of meditation

[Riklet]

I think you can definitely reach meditative states whilst listening to music, the posture and breathing which help to facilitate mediation aren't necessary, they just help (especially to reach much deeper states ^). I've found myself in fairly 'meditative' states without trying exactly, sometimes the mind just wanders to them. One of the great things about staring out of train windows haha.

When the Chinese invaded Tibet and went into the monastries, they actively tried to stop monks from meditating (closing their eyes, etc) but they could still do so. Just harder, innit. The ultimate Zen challenge retreat; AK in your spine... Probably easier than watching Avatar however...

I've not meditated for a while, might start again this year, cos I do find it very cleansing and helpful when done regularly. Requires me to kind make the time n stick to it though...

 

[Dillinger4]

I think you can definitely reach meditative states whilst listening to music, the posture and breathing which help to facilitate mediation aren't necessary, they just help (especially to reach much deeper states ^). I've found myself in fairly 'meditative' states without trying exactly, sometimes the mind just wanders to them. One of the great things about staring out of train windows haha.

I disagree completely, music is a distraction and breathing and posture are essential.

 

[ChrisC]

Well done Jazzz keep it up.

http://www.buddhanet.net/

Quick plug for guidance.

 

[Wookey]

I disagree completely, music is a distraction and breathing and posture are essential.

I'm with you on that. Once during my first few group lessons, I said that I reached the state of awareness when I listened to music, and felt the same kindof refreshed feeling afterwards, like I did with meditations.

My teacher didn't respond, which I took to be a negative. Since then I've learned more about how directed mindfulness is a powerful muscle that needs training, and it takes the postures, breathing and quiet to achieve that. The music trance is similar, but it's influenced from outside, and that's not what meditation is about, meditation comes from within, it's an internal journey.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And at what point in the nearly three hours of the movie did this come to mind? Or did it pervade the whole movie?

It's a given. It was written by James Cameron, apparently in three weeks. If you read about Cameron and the movies he's written, including Terminator and Titanic, it appears that he has certain recurrent themes.

 

[Jazzz]

Since then I've learned more about how directed mindfulness is a powerful muscle that needs training

I think this is it. I think you can have a blissful time in all manner of trance-like states, but it's not 'training', as you say.

 

[fela fan]

Except it's not 'meditating'.

It's relaxing and listening to music. Nothing more, nothing less.

You seem very sure about what meditation is. Relaxing and listening to music, if done without interruption from identifying with thoughts, is meditation.

 

[fela fan]

I disagree completely, music is a distraction and breathing and posture are essential.

You simply can't declare that music is a distraction. Maybe it is for you, and maybe some of it is, but your emphatic statement has no basis in validity.

Everything is a distraction, and everything is not a distraction. It depends on the internal. If music is a distraction, then you would have to say so is a waterfall, or the sound of running water. And in fact you could say breathing is a distraction. As for posture, no particular posture is required, so in what way do you claim it is essential? If you mean simply that one needs some kind of posture, then fine.

Your emphatic claims are an oxymoron to zen and meditation. No sooner than you declare such things to be true, then you are divorced from zen and meditation. The knower, the man who says he knows this or that, is not acting in zen.

 

[fela fan]

I think this is it. I think you can have a blissful time in all manner of trance-like states, but it's not 'training', as you say.

If you think this is it, then it is not. Zen and meditation are not about thinking this or that, just accepting everything as it is.

And is meditation about being 'blissful'? I thought it was about nothing, pure nothing in terms of the observer not identifying with the observed. I thought it was not about gaining or doing anything, rather about dropping, ceasing, doing nothing.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You simply can't declare that music is a distraction. Maybe it is for you, and maybe some of it is, but your emphatic statement has no basis in validity.

Everything is a distraction, and everything is not a distraction. It depends on the internal. If music is a distraction, then you would have to say so is a waterfall, or the sound of running water. And in fact you could say breathing is a distraction. As for posture, no particular posture is required, so in what way do you claim it is essential? If you mean simply that one needs some kind of posture, then fine.

Your emphatic claims are an oxymoron to zen and meditation. No sooner than you declare such things to be true, then you are divorced from zen and meditation. The knower, the man who says he knows this or that, is not acting in zen.

It's arguable that the brain areas activated by music, are different from those activated by 'calm attentiveness'.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

If you think this is it, then it is not. Zen and meditation are not about thinking this or that, just accepting everything as it is.

And is meditation about being 'blissful'? I thought it was about nothing, pure nothing in terms of the observer not identifying with the observed. I thought it was not about gaining or doing anything, rather about dropping, ceasing, doing nothing.

I think you've put it rather well here.

 

[fela fan]

It's arguable that the brain areas activated by music, are different from those activated by 'calm attentiveness'.

Yes it is more than possible. But meditation is not concerned with such distinctions! Either we are identifying with our thoughts, or we're not. And there is a big difference between our brain being activated, and ourselves activating our own brains.

 

[fela fan]

I think you've put it rather well here.

I accept...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yes it is more than possible. But meditation is not concerned with such distinctions!.

Maybe not, but it is probably important. If the brain distinction exists, then meditating while listening to music would be similar to trying to improve your baseball batting swing, by kicking a football around a field.

 

[fela fan]

Maybe not, but it is probably important. If the brain distinction exists, then meditating while listening to music would be similar to trying to improve your baseball batting swing, by kicking a football around a field.

'Meditating' is actually a bit of a misleading word! It carries connotations of doing some kind of action, of actually doing something. Whereas meditating takes place when all mind activity is ceased, in a state of passivity/receptivity rather than productivity. So, i think, depending on one or two factors, one doesn't actually proactively meditate by listening to music, rather, often the process of listening to music imbues a meditative state of being onto the listener. It depends if the mind is wondering, or if it's focussed totally on the sounds entering one's body. That's why i think running water is of great benefit to people who wish to experience meditation, it really helps to slow down the mind's thoughts.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Whereas meditating takes place when all mind activity is ceased,.

If you're hearing the music, then mind activity hasn't ceased.

 

[fela fan]

If you're hearing the music, then mind activity hasn't ceased.

My distinction was to be found in the receptive/passive mode in contrast to the productive/active mode. A stream of thoughts may come to one's mind, unprompted by any conscious brain activity, yet if one simply observes these thoughts without identifying with them, then meditation is taking place. Consciously thinking or contemplating on these thoughts means that meditation is not happening.

Hearing something or seeing something initially triggers the auditory or visual store. If no further brain processing takes place, then meditation is occurring. If we allow the stimulus to go into our working memory store, then contemplation, not meditation, occurs.

So whether you want to call sound or visual cues as brain activity will be up to you. But it's important to make the distinction between what are meditative or contemplative states of being. And that depends on the conscious application of the brain, or not.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My distinction was to be found in the receptive/passive mode in contrast to the productive/active mode. A stream of thoughts may come to one's mind, unprompted by any conscious brain activity, yet if one simply observes these thoughts without identifying with them, then meditation is taking place. Consciously thinking or contemplating on these thoughts means that meditation is not happening.

Hearing something or seeing something initially triggers the auditory or visual store. If no further brain processing takes place, then meditation is occurring. If we allow the stimulus to go into our working memory store, then contemplation, not meditation, occurs.

So whether you want to call sound or visual cues as brain activity will be up to you. But it's important to make the distinction between what are meditative or contemplative states of being. And that depends on the conscious application of the brain, or not.

The only difference with music is that it isn't talking coming in, and it's not your 'inner voice', talking inside your head. But the music is a stimulus that causes brain activity that can result in emotion, association etc. It's just not caused by verbal stimuli, and doesn't necessarily result in an inner verbal response. But your brain is still reacting to it, it's still working, thus detracting from the state of 'doing nothing'. Your mind might be clear of words, but it's not clear.

 

[fela fan]

The only difference with music is that it isn't talking coming in, and it's not your 'inner voice', talking inside your head. But the music is a stimulus that causes brain activity that can result in emotion, association etc. It's just not caused by verbal stimuli, and doesn't necessarily result in an inner verbal response. But your brain is still reacting to it, it's still working, thus detracting from the state of 'doing nothing'. Your mind might be clear of words, but it's not clear.

Yeah, but since meditation is nothing more than observing the thoughts that come into one's head without identifying with them on an emotional level, it doesn't actually matter if the mind is clear of words. Meditation does not preclude the activity of the brain, surely you're not saying that?

With music, it's not about the music coming in. It's not about anything coming in. It's just about if the mind can stop thinking. If you're so concentrated on listening to the music, that it osmotes into you, and your whole brain activity is focussed on your experience of the music, then i would say that is meditation.

 

[Jazzz]

ah well. finished three weeks today. Was offered a koan yesterday, but elected to carry on counting for another week at least. build up my 'joriki'. feels like the novelty has worn off - i only remembered i hadn't meditated earlier today when my alarm went - so the real work begins here. I feel stuff is happening though.

 

[Wookey]

Yeah, but since meditation is nothing more than observing the thoughts that come into one's head without identifying with them on an emotional level, it doesn't actually matter if the mind is clear of words. Meditation does not preclude the activity of the brain, surely you're not saying that?

With music, it's not about the music coming in. It's not about anything coming in. It's just about if the mind can stop thinking. If you're so concentrated on listening to the music, that it osmotes into you, and your whole brain activity is focussed on your experience of the music, then i would say that is meditation.

As I have been taught meditation, which has usually been Buddist influenced, I was advised in the early stages to bat away any thoughts that entered my head - not get upset over them being there (for that would be to engage in them) but to gently push them away and go back to your counting, or candle, or whatever simple icon you might be using.

Eventually, with practice, you don't have to do that anymore - the thoughts cease when you start meditating. It can take months to reach this point, and for some people it never comes.

But the training method of focussing on something natural and simple, like a candle flame, or your breath, or your naval, gives you a white page (a white noise even, if it's water) against which you can spot if something enters that shouldn't be there.

This separation of the thinking and the unthinking mind is the first step to controlling the unthinking mind, to try and reach the level where you can enter the unthinking mind on the bus, in a queue, with many distractions around you, at any time you want.

Music, however, is a complex, man-made thing. It's purpose is to emotionally engage you; even a single G chord changing to a C chord can create an emotional response, which is not what meditation is about.

I don't think you can fully concentrate with one mind, on your breathing, if you are listening to music, and Buddhist meditation doesn't use music. I know new age 'relaxation' meditators use 'relaxation' music - but I don't think their goal is strength through peace, or Nirvana, or even transedence, as much as a really refreshing rest.

If you are in a trancendant state, then it wouldn't matter if the music was there or not, because you would have the ability not to listen to it - but without training, most people can't reach this state - and that's why the baby slopes of meditation are littered with candles and breathing - as tools to help you switch off the outer world.

I love music, and it was through musical meditation that I became interested in the skill of meditation as a whole - so I can see why people link the two, because I did. But I've since discovered that the self-changing powers of meditation really lie inside you at all times, and outside influences always, in my experience, disrupt that journey.

 

[Wookey]

I feel stuff is happening though.

Stuff??!!

What's happening, can you describe it?

 

[Wookey]

If you're so concentrated on listening to the music, that it osmotes into you, and your whole brain activity is focussed on your experience of the music, then i would say that is meditation.

If I listen to music mindfully, then I block out everything else and turn every note over in my head, and allow it to properly infuse me, then I enter a low-level state of meditation, I agree. I can also do this with washing up the dishes, or hoovering - if I do it mindfully, then it becomes another thing, something to cherish and enjoy and be amazed at.

But that to me is like going for a sunny walk, whereas mindful meditation, where I am with one mind concentrating on meditation, is more like a run, if that makes sense.

 

[fela fan]

wookey

Nice to read and think about, your posts.

I often like to think about my objectives for meditating, and then decide on the method to get me there.

So if, for example, i want to get some space to not even need to bat away thoughts, then washing up or music can be the method. But i like music, so i can reach my objective by combining mind-cessation and music. (don't tell me you manage to be meditative when going shopping...)

I also like sitting in nature somewhere. Even in my garden. Many methods. Same objective, to get away from thoughts from what i think you termed the unthinking mind. For me i can consciously apply my mind to help me through my day, or it can gain its own control by making me react to external happenings, or simply putting a thought into my consciousness even though i gave it no permission to enter. This mind, of its own accord, is particularly prevalent in the game of golf, doing its level best to mess your game up. Could golf be the metaphor for life?

So, meditation to help us learn how to react, or rather, not react, to external happenings and the mind's thoughts.

Just trying to exemplify my experiences of what we are all calling meditation, i guess. But i did read that 'meditating' is a poor translation from sangskrit (i think?), because it implies we are actually doing something, when as we know, we are concentrating on no action and no thinking.

To what extent does your environment influence your life by piercing any zen-like states we might be in?

 

[kyser_soze]

don't tell me you manage to be meditative when going shopping

If I'm with the missus and pusing the trolley around...

 

[invisibleplanet]

If you are taking a zen attitude you are not doing 100 days of meditation. You are just doing one day of meditation one hundred times

Om Ha!

 

[fela fan]

But the training method of focussing on something natural and simple, like a candle flame, or your breath, or your naval, gives you a white page (a white noise even, if it's water) against which you can spot if something enters that shouldn't be there.

This separation of the thinking and the unthinking mind is the first step to controlling the unthinking mind, to try and reach the level where you can enter the unthinking mind on the bus, in a queue, with many distractions around you, at any time you want.

Music, however, is a complex, man-made thing. It's purpose is to emotionally engage you; even a single G chord changing to a C chord can create an emotional response, which is not what meditation is about.

I don't think you can fully concentrate with one mind, on your breathing, if you are listening to music, and Buddhist meditation doesn't use music. I know new age 'relaxation' meditators use 'relaxation' music - but I don't think their goal is strength through peace, or Nirvana, or even transedence, as much as a really refreshing rest.

For me, that white page can be music, or more often the sound of running water, be it stream or waterfall. It can be the noises of the night air.

I'm not sure what you mean about separating the thinking and unthinking mind. I guess that by thinking you mean where i consciously use my mind to think about what i need to do to get through my day, while for unthinking i think this will be the mind itself churning up thoughts of its own, from your vast memory bank (schemata) of life's experience. A typical example for me is when about to hit a golf ball, my mind decides completely by its own accord to remind me that last time i hit it from here i went into the water. I, the other me, am trying to focus on my shot. This to me is not quite 'unthinking', rather the mind doing its own thinking, separate to you, the host of that mind. The thinking done by the mind is formed from one's full past.

It goes without saying then, that meditation should be a boon for those who want to get over past events in their lives!

I'm not sure about that word 'controlling' either. Surely the objective is to drop all forms of control?

Use the mind, don't be used by it... same with technology, same with life...

 

[fela fan]

If I'm with the missus and pusing the trolley around...

then you have managed a great and most useful skill. I can't, so i just don't go. Whereas me shopping alone for music or books is an entirely different state of well-being.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

For me, that white page can be music, or more often the sound of running water, be it stream or waterfall. It can be the noises of the night air.

I'm not sure what you mean about separating the thinking and unthinking mind. I guess that by thinking you mean where i consciously use my mind to think about what i need to do to get through my day, while for unthinking i think this will be the mind itself churning up thoughts of its own, from your vast memory bank (schemata) of life's experience. A typical example for me is when about to hit a golf ball, my mind decides completely by its own accord to remind me that last time i hit it from here i went into the water. I, the other me, am trying to focus on my shot. This to me is not quite 'unthinking', rather the mind doing its own thinking, separate to you, the host of that mind. The thinking done by the mind is formed from one's full past.

It goes without saying then, that meditation should be a boon for those who want to get over past events in their lives!

I'm not sure about that word 'controlling' either. Surely the objective is to drop all forms of control?

Use the mind, don't be used by it... same with technology, same with life...

I think I know what you're getting at, and I agree with it. I think where the disagreement lies, is that what you're talking about might be described more as a spiritual state or frame of mind, while the others are talking about the definition of doctrinaire meditation.

 

[fela fan]

I think I know what you're getting at, and I agree with it. I think where the disagreement lies, is that what you're talking about might be described more as a spiritual state or frame of mind, while the others are talking about the definition of doctrinaire meditation.

Yeah, that's probably it, although i'm not sure there was any disagreement. For me achieving the objectives of meditation are the guidelines, not the actual meditating.

I would say one of those objectives is to become oneself, to become at one with oneself. The mind, the judging mind, the voice of the society one is in, can take a holiday.