Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[Red Cat]

I've said it before on here, 'the patriarchy' is a description not an explanation. I don't use the phrase myself, it doesn't tell me anything.

And how on earth can a subject be a man's subject or a woman's subject? What is it we're supposed to talk about when the men are quiet and giving us space? As if women are going to share their experiences of male violence on an urban thread, I don't even talk about it with my friends.

We all have access to the same information and theories about our society and its history, there's nothing that women can provide that men can't get themselves.

So, what do people think about the stats in the article? What are some explanations for the use of extreme porn by boys and young men and the apparent increase in DV by young men?

 

[LakieLady]

On another point - I don't duck out. I read, respectfully (mostly), and try to offer something only when I'm pretty sure I can contribute. Violence against women is a woman's topic and should be dominated by women's voices. OTOH, I do believe it's 'the patriarchy' at root, and that, by definition, is a male problem. A societal problem unchangeable in our life times let alone overnight. My only answer is to change the dominant culture by stealth, by permeation, by talking these ideas in our daily lives to both friends and foe.

Even if you end up with no friends.

While it's a women's topic, it will never improve unless men join the dialogue. Men can influence other men as much, probably more, than women can. Men can probably change the mindset of other men far more quickly than women can by condemning predatory, abusive and violent behaviour, and misogyny, among their peers.

I've seen a massive amount of progress in my lifetime. When I was young, the police didn't take DV seriously because it was "just a domestic", there were no such things as refuges, the "she was asking for it" attitude to sex crimes was commonplace, rape in marriage wasn't a crime, the way women reporting sexual offences were treated was appalling and the judicial process if the perpetrator got to court was horrific for the woman.

Sadly, I think the incel movement and the influence of people like Andrew Tate on young men is powerful, and may hinder further progress. Parents and role models outside of the domestic setting need to step up and educate boys about consent and respect for women in the hope that that sort of shit can be nipped in the bud.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

very often we regret the things we didnt do , more than we regret the things we did .... There is a thing called the Bystander Effect that explains why we dont intervene in public situations. Again, education is the cure. Once you know about it, you can take steps....

Silas, at least you have thought about it over the years .... some wouldnt

I've intervened in an incident, not VAWG, but a random male adult passenger on the top deck of a bus was being assaulted by a load of school kids. There was a sort of rugby scrum in the middle of the aisle, with male adult passenger at the bottom, being punched and kicked.

I stood up in the middle of the aisle and spread my arms - as more of the school kids surged forward - to block them from joining in the beating.

One kid took a swing and punched me in the face. I sustained a fractured zygoma (lower eye socket/cheekbone area), and had a corker of a black eye.

In hindsight, I figured I was lucky none of them pulled a knife on me, and I'd like to think that I * wouldn't * intervene again in similar circumstances, because next time I might not be so lucky.

However, whether or not I would in reality I don't know, because I acted on instinct last time, don't know whether I'd just act on instinct next time or whether survival instinct/common sense would kick in.

 

[Sweet FA]

You clearly don't know Derek S-H in the slightest.

Because he's only been here 5 minutes.

 

[two sheds]

if you join a new website, shouldn’t you try and sort of fit in, rather than trying to take over the decks?

to be fair they've done exactly that in every other thread I've seen, and people have been having a go at them here so they've largely just responded.

 

[Sweet FA]

to be fair they've done exactly that in every other thread I've seen, and people have been having a go at them here so they've largely just responded.

Are you talking about tardigrade? With 140 odd posts in 36 hours or something, I'm pretty sure they've got the ego to handle being told to stfu. Particularly if they're going to have a pop (justifiably or not) at a poster who's been here for a while.

 

[Aladdin]

If the police have said this is a "National Emergency" then one would expect that all the stops should be pulled out to protect women.
Somehow I don't see this happening until....
More women are in government.
More women are in the judiciary.
And men step up and fight for women's equality...because my feeling is that violence towards women stems from certain men who do not believe in equality. These Men who believe they have a right to strike a woman because they see them as objects/ inferior / weak / subservient/ their possession.

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you talking about tardigrade? With 140 odd posts in 36 hours or something, I'm pretty sure they've got the ego to handle being told to stfu. Particularly if they're going to have a pop (justifiably or not) at a poster who's been here for a while.

If they stop here it'll take them 8 years 10 months to reach my current post count should they continue as loquacious. Don't think they can really handle being told to stfu.

 

[Rompipalle]

Because he's only been here 5 minutes.

Granted, so it begs the question why someone feels qualified to make an assessment of his awareness of and attitudes towards the topic in hand. It clearly isn’t because they know him, so it’s more likely just an attempt to invalidate his opinion, based on nothing more than the duration of his membership.

 

[Callie]

I've said it before on here, 'the patriarchy' is a description not an explanation. I don't use the phrase myself, it doesn't tell me anything.

And how on earth can a subject be a man's subject or a woman's subject? What is it we're supposed to talk about when the men are quiet and giving us space? As if women are going to share their experiences of male violence on an urban thread, I don't even talk about it with my friends.

We all have access to the same information and theories about our society and its history, there's nothing that women can provide that men can't get themselves.

So, what do people think about the stats in the article? What are some explanations for the use of extreme porn by boys and young men and the apparent increase in DV by young men?

Can you link to the articles? I can't find them in the thread - interested to read them

 

[quimcunx]

Sadly, the biggest volume of the problem occurs at home in any case

So? Being at more risk at home hasn't stopped society warning women not to leave home, stay safe at home despite the logic fail.

Every moment of every day women's behaviour is under curfew because of the violence of men. Some men are violent some of the time so all women have to suffer the consequences all of the time, their behaviour, their bodies constrained, contained, controlled in order to avoid male violence against women. 'It's just what we have to do to keeps us safe' And it doesn't work because, as we both already know, the violence follows us home.

And when we, as a society or a community ask what can we do about male violence the women are invested in what those answers are while the 'good men' throw their hands in the air and say ah but what can we do? I'm not violent against women. I can't change those men that are. 'Well if you can't change those men how about a curfew?' 'God no, don't be ridiculous.'

Why should it be this way?

Why not a world where some men are violent some times therefore all men have to suffer the consequences all of the time, their behaviour, their bodies constrained, contained, controlled in order to avoid male violence against women. 'Its just what we have to do to keep them safe'.

On the curfew thread it was treated, without any sense of irony, as crazy and impractical (well, huh) that men should have a curfew but it's just been treated as 'common sense' for women forever. (This despite men being victims of violence from other men plenty on the street.) Maybe when it's them who feel the effects every day rather than women it would make 'good men' more invested in finding solutions to male violence. Maybe they'd brainstorm some solutions to stopping those men who are. Maybe a change in attitude in the courts to 'domestics' for instance.

For the avoidance of doubt, yes, of course I know its not going to happen. But men reading this could at least give it a moment's thought.

 

[JimW]

So, what do people think about the stats in the article? What are some explanations for the use of extreme porn by boys and young men and the apparent increase in DV by young men?

I feel like one part of it is how commodifcation of everything bleeds even more into relationships; even if the non-commodified relationships in the past were often terrible (misogynist community mores, patriarchal family etc.) they could be a brake on the worst open violence in some ways.

 

[quimcunx]

On a vaguely related subject I'm pretty sure the massive increase in pram engineering/design followed the growth of men being the ones pushing them.

 

[Orang Utan]

On a vaguely related subject I'm pretty sure the massive increase in pram engineering/design followed the growth of men being the ones pushing them.

Isn’t one of the leading brands called McLaren?

 

[trashpony]

to be fair they've done exactly that in every other thread I've seen, and people have been having a go at them here so they've largely just responded.

Fair enough. I reserve judgement on what people post here. Not what their mates tell me

Granted, so it begs the question why someone feels qualified to make an assessment of his awareness of and attitudes towards the topic in hand. It clearly isn’t because they know him, so it’s more likely just an attempt to invalidate his opinion, based on nothing more than the duration of his membership.

I rest my case

 

[Red Cat]

Can you link to the articles? I can't find them in the thread - interested to read them

Its just one article, its the link to the Guardian in the OP.

 

[Rompipalle]

Fair enough. I reserve judgement on what people post here. Not what their mates tell me

I rest my case

What did he say that entitles you or anyone else to airily dismiss his opinion or to suggest that he lacks insight into the subject?

I hadn’t really anticipated that new forum members were likely to cause such disquiet around here. How long do we have to be here before we are permitted to participate without suspicion and hostility? Clearly I was naive.

 

[trashpony]

No one knows anything about him or you. You vouching for him as being a sound bloke is about as comforting as a creepy guy sitting next to me on an empty bus and telling me he’s friendly.

And if you hadn’t anticipated any of this, then yes, you’re naive.

Anyway, moving on and back to the topic of the thread …

 

[Rompipalle]

No one knows anything about him or you. You vouching for him as being a sound bloke is about as comforting as a creepy guy sitting next to me on an empty bus and telling me he’s friendly.

And if you hadn’t anticipated any of this, then yes, you’re naive.

Anyway, moving on and back to the topic of the thread …

Thanks for likening me to a creepy guy on a bus…

Jeezus Christ…

 

[Dystopiary]

Sadly, the biggest volume of the problem occurs at home in any case

True. But that doesn't deal with the fact that a huge amount of it still does happen elsewhere. Women want to be able to leave the house without having to hear "I would" or "Ew, I wouldn't shag that" or "Cheer up love" etc etc etc, just for daring to exist in public - all that is a form of violence and comes with a constant threat of escalating into physical violence.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Although men should be taking the responsibility for change, the reality is that men won't be able to turn the tide alone. we all know that- this has been ongoing since time began and is an entrenched systematic issue. We have to wait for people to retire and die and hope that their influence wanes. I'm all for huge fines for media who continue to perpetuate the predominant narrative. An increase in reverse discrimination, leading to more positions of power for women. More legislation and greater sentencing to force change. I like the idea of curfews - maybe put on and then raised as events occur - but I also think it could have unintended consequences which are negative for everyone.

I don't suggest that women have to overcome adversity for this outcome - but.. I have 4 kids, 3 of them sons. None of the boys/ men have poor attitudes or assumptions towards women, and I have seen them risk their livelihood and relationships with important colleagues and friends, by speaking up strongly and successfully, when something is wrong. And not in a white knight way - they will stand with a woman who can self advocate. They have a reputation for this integrity.

I'd like to say I have some bullet points for others to follow, but I don't. I feel like I dragged my kids up- they had a really tough start to life. When we've talked about it though - they have all said that it's down to seeing me overcome a lot of adversity, It seems that because of this they don't hesitate to consider that any women are any less in any way, and they live this through their actions.

I'm not holding this up as a suggestion or a way women should be - just describing my experience.

I also think the comments about increased stress, poverty and ambient trauma are accurate - more people are angry and feel that they have nothing left to loose.

 

[Red Cat]

True. But that doesn't deal with the fact that a huge amount of it still does happen elsewhere. Women want to be able to leave the house without having to hear "I would" or "Ew, I wouldn't shag that" or "Cheer up love" etc etc etc, just for daring to exist in public - all that is a form of violence and comes with a constant threat of escalating into physical violence.

And men in cars, they are frightening. This is where I encounter male violence these days. Just the other day a man screamed at me something like fuck you you fucking bitch because he had to slow down from speeding on a country road as I crossed his lane to park. He did this in front of my daughter and his own child. He really frightened my daughter not with what he said so much as the expression of rage on his face, on her way to her first session of equine therapy.

What an absolute cunt.

 

[cesare]

And men in cars, they are frightening. This is where I encounter male violence these days. Just the other day a man screamed at me something like fuck you you fucking bitch because he had to slow down from speeding on a country road as I crossed his lane to park. He did this in front of my daughter and his own child. He really frightened my daughter not with what he said so much as the expression of rage on his face, on her way to her first session of equine therapy.

What an absolute cunt.

You get a real insight into their sense of entitlement and barely suppressed rage/attempts at coercion when they are somehow thwarted while driving their vehicle.

 

[Callie]

Its just one article, its the link to the Guardian in the OP.

I was thinking it was from a totally different article and trawling through posts looking for it

 

[Santino]

...and I have seen them risk their livelihood and relationships with important colleagues and friends, by speaking up strongly and successfully, when something is wrong. And not in a white knight way - they will stand with a woman who can self advocate.

Genuine question for everyone - when is standing up for women White Knighting and when is it not?

 

[emanymton]

Genuine question for everyone - when is standing up for women White Knighting and when is it not?

It's white knighting if you disagree with the point and not white Knighting if you agree with it.

 

[Derek S-H]

Because he's only been here 5 minutes.

And?

Am I supposed to wait for 6 months just lurking, then post?

I'm sure that also wouldn't arouse suspicion in any way whatsoever towards my intentions, or maybe some Members would ask why I've been here 6 months and only now started posting?

How about just being more welcoming and assuming that I am posting from a good place?

 

[Humberto]

Quite old now but there's a daily mail article about one experiment (I'm not linking to the mail but there's an archived version here and the video itself is here )

Then there's a BBC article about a similar experiment. Same result each time, strangers are more likely to intervene if it's a man abusing a woman but more likely to victim-blame (or even enjoy the spectacle) if it's a woman abusing a man.

Anyway it is heartening to see people will at least intervene if they see a woman being attacked.

I recall an experience in maybe 2008 or so when I was in Morrisons at Shepherds Bush and there was a large bloke screaming at and smacking a (his own, I guessed) small child. Lots of people around but nobody intervened except ultimately, me. Obviously he yelled at me it was none of my business but he did at least stop (and drag the child away angrily). Not a lot else I could do, but it's not the only time I've seen a child being abused in public and nobody stepping in.

So yeah, kids too. People in my experience often won't intervene in public abuse by a parent of their child. Which is pretty shameful. I expect alongside the epidemic of abuse of women, there's a vast hidden one taking place of abuse of children, who even more than adult partners are treated as property to do with as we wish.

If a man is being abusive to his partner in public, and another man verbally or physically intervenes, it often ends unhappily for all three. If someone is in serious danger, then yes I'd hope somebody would have the gumption to act. But it's just as likely that the abusive man, full of rage, will overpower the reluctant and 'well-meaning' intervener. And possibly the woman will have an even harder time of it back home. She might even know that and attack the intervener out of some kind of desperation. Just a thought, reading thread with interest and not saying much. It's largely thought provoking for me. It's just one of those 'what would or should I do?' questions.

 

[CNT36]

Linking this back to the OP I think Tate etc are a big concern. And possibly driving an increase in violent attitudes towards women (/anyone). What drives the popularity there? How do they get sucked in? Is it just normal catching a younger male trying to navigate dating, relationships, their value in society?

How old is your lad? Is he still in that zone? Can you talk to him about it all?

His relationship with Tate type stuff started long before Tate was a thing. His stepfather was into that shit and shared it with him when he was a very young teen. The stepfathers family were quite traditional and nodded along as did some of my family who didn't understand the difference between what he was saying and their own opinions. They thought it was the same stuff they were raised on/in which though it should be confined to the past is not the same as the crap Tate et al come out with. It however led to a sort of acceptance and only now have they started to understand what the Tate stuff is. So was sucked in partially due to a real world role model.

The copywriting was because of his difficulty finding a job and the whole NEET thing. I tried to let him know it was a scam but when that didn't get anywhere help him figure it out himself. I didn't want to push too hard on it and get shut out completely. Luckily he's never gone completely down that road or the others he has been drawn towards but it is always there.

He is quite critical of a lot of it but I think it has become a bit tribal. He may share some opinions with the online arseholes but has quite a wide range of views including sharing some with the "woke" but still clings to the arseholes as a part of his identity. He's chosen a side even if he finds a lot of their shit horrible now. He also wasn't impressed with the human trafficking etc stuff Tate has been upto and has said he hates the bloke.

I don't know about dating, relationships etc but that's always been a difficult area for men of a certain age. I grew up in the era of American Pie, alsorts of unhealthy relationships on tv, dial up porn and shitty attitudes from peers. I can see why having such easy access to hardcore porn and the spouting off of nasty shits on YouTube or whatever is going to cause more issues for young people at what is a difficult age.

 

[CNT36]

I'm actually quite proud of him. Earlier in the year he paid for a girl he barely knews taxi fare to get home because she was really drunk, her friends had left her and he was worried about her getting home safe.