Meat eaters are destroying the planet, warns WWF report

[JimW]

Fwiw, the general vegan philosophical position is that factory farmed animals should not exist in the first place, regardless of numbers, and this is due to the primacy of suffering as the chief evil in the vegan mindset.

It's not such a terrible general principle to apply to humans either, and we do it routinely.

So I think Larry's argument (if I understood it), is essentially correct, there is an inconsistency in those statements.

Animal suffering not caused by humans is a thornier matter, though, and may go some way to explain some AR activists releasing animals into unsuitable conditions that they deem "the wild", in order to meet a drawn out and grisly death.

No, because it's predicated on ceasing to do the things that cause suffering. In the case of animals that would also lead to less of them being reared into existence, in humans that doesn't follow in the same way.

 

[editor]

Yes.

I'm not accepting the word unless we're talking about a veganan chef talking about his meat-stuffing, beer guzzling nights out at McDonalds in 2004.

 

[alfajobrob]

No, because it's predicated on ceasing to do the things that cause suffering. In the case of animals that would also lead to less of them being reared into existence, in humans that doesn't follow in the same way.

Unless you lived in China back in the 1 child days.

 

[8ball]

I think they actually argue for the elimination of factory farms rather than the elimination of the animals contained therein.

Sure, they don't necessarily argue mass culling (I don't think many vegans are so unrealistic to assume recruitment so high that remaining current farm animals cannot be sold). I was talking on the point of billions of farm animals no longer coming into existence.

 

[8ball]

I'm not accepting the word unless we're talking about a fake vegan chef talking about his meat-stuffing, beer guzzling nights out at McDonalds in 2004.

That's a real thorny one ie. who is "fake" and who isn't.
Best left to the vegans, that.

 

[WouldBe]

I'm not sure that rule applies when someone proudly announces their new made up word and dedicates multiple posts explaining the reasoning behind its specific spelling, and continues to only use that one spelling throughout the thread.

Er I did explain it was an amalgamation of vegetarian and vegan so it should have been obvious that I'd misspelled it.

I thought you wouldn't deliberately take the piss out of someone with dyslexia? Yet here you are still talking the piss.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm confused, is the generally accepted term Vegegan now?

That's the spelling that will be appearing in the dictionaries, no doubt. I actually prefer vegigan, so that's how I'm going to spell it.

 

[JimW]

Unless you lived in China back in the 1 child days.

I did, the policy was nothing to do with that and came from a different place entirely.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's the spelling that will be appearing in the dictionaries, no doubt. I actually prefer vegigan, so that's how I'm going to spell it.

There's also the thorny issue of pronunciation. I think it will end up with two variants listed as acceptable by the OED. Personally in prefer two hard 'g's.

 

[alfajobrob]

I did, the policy was nothing to do with that and came from a different place entirely.

Where did the policy come from and what was the reasoning?

Genuine question.

 

[WouldBe]

Not really just pulling someone up on spelling when you're querying a new word they've coined.

Difference being that you didn't take the piss. You reasonably queried the 'i' in the word.

 

[WouldBe]

I think they actually argue for the elimination of factory farms rather than the elimination of the animals contained therein.

So what do you do with the animals then?

 

[Spymaster]

There's also the thorny issue of pronunciation. I think it will end up with two variants listed as acceptable by the OED. Personally in prefer two hard 'g's.

I prefer soft then hard: Vej-i-gan, but your suggestion veg-ee-gan, is fine too.

I don't think we should be too fussy about these things.

Tomayto tomato, and stuff.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I'm confused, is the generally accepted term Vegegan now?

It is.

There's also the thorny issue of pronunciation. I think it will end up with two variants listed as acceptable by the OED. Personally in prefer two hard 'g's.

[vej-ee-guh n]

 

[JimW]

Where did the policy come from and what was the reasoning?

Genuine question.

Well, to cut a long story short, the interests of the state.
Despite what we hear about the doom and gloom of the famine and the cultural revolution bar the blip after the Great Leap China's population boomed because there was no civil war and land reform did actually largely work when the policy wasn't too mad. Trouble is, although the slogan is always serve the people that's only ever been in the abstract so resource pressures (very little arable land per capita is a big one) and a desire to keep control to access to urban status led to an about turn to control the population at levels where the planners could accommodate it to their vision of a stronger more modern China. But reform and opening changed the game and the material/political economic pressures are very different now so they've finally been able to ditch it. Must have been one of the most hated policies they pursued and ruined grassroots governance as it made official/public relations largely hostile.

 

[8ball]

So what do you do with the animals then?

See #2,734

 

[alfajobrob]

Well, to cut a long story short, the interests of the state.
Despite what we hear about the doom and gloom of the famine and the cultural revolution bar the blip after the Great Leap China's population boomed because there was no civil war and land reform did actually largely work when the policy wasn't too mad. Trouble is, although the slogan is always serve the people that's only ever been in the abstract so resource pressures (very little arable land per capita is a big one) and a desire to keep control to access to urban status led to an about turn to control the population at levels where the planners could accommodate it to their vision of a stronger more modern China. But reform and opening changed the game and the material/political economic pressures are very different now so they've finally been able to ditch it. Must have been one of the most hated policies they pursued and ruined grassroots governance as it made official/public relations largely hostile.

Thanks, just read up on it a little as well.

A lot more nuanced than I thought.

 

[editor]

Difference being that you didn't take the piss. You reasonably queried the 'i' in the word.

Funny how you carried on using the 'vegigan' term long after the 'i' was "reasonably queried" way back in post #2505:

Whats's the "i" doing there if it's a portmanteau? Inquiring minds actually couldn't give a fuck.

In fact, you empathically doubled down on that spelling in post #2606, despite JimW pointing out your error.

As it was me that coined the word vegigan I fully know how it was intended. As I've previously explained I have no problem with anyone who is vegetarian or vegan. Some vegigans on these boards have had tantrums in the past when someone has called them vegetarian when they are vegan and vice versa so it was coined to avoid the ballache of having to type vegetarian / vegan all the time to avoid upsetting the more sensitive of you. So don't go putting words ( or definitions ) in my mouth as it makes you look a dick.

And again in post #2633 and #2674 etc etc etc

Perhaps you should check the definition of vegetarian. Vegetarianism - Wikipedia With the wide range of vegetarians it's probably even more important to have an alternative word like vegigan.

 

[WouldBe]

Right. So you're insisting that you meant 'vegegan' all along now, despite carefully explaining how you created the 'veginan' word. OK. But then that means that you didn't make that word up - so why claim ownership?

Probably because I didn't know the word existed at that time.

Neither word make any sense to me, so I'll continue to take the piss and laugh at that ridiculous meat eating blog by a non-existent vegan 'chef' you claimed supported the adoption of its definition.

What about the vegetarian / vegan that started that thread who called themselves a vegegan? Or the other (vegegan) posters that agreed or were supportive? Do they not count in your weird little world?

 

[8ball]

Thanks, just read up on it a little as well.

A lot more nuanced than I thought.

Where did you read up, out of interest?

 

[8ball]

And again in post #2633

Tbf we only have the word vegan because some vegetarians were cheating.

'Vegan' was a contested point as a word at the time - alternatives like "Vitan" and "Benevore" were also in the running.
I expect it would have got a lot more mean-tempered if internet bulletin boards had existed - people had time back then to think things over before putting the letter in the post.

Vegans should be grateful everyone isn't calling them "Bennies". Would have been especially bad back when Crossroads was still on the box.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Funny how you carried on using the 'vegigan term long after the 'i' was "reasonably queried" way back in post #2505:

In fact, you empathically doubled down on that spelling in post #2606:

And again in post #2633

Speaking of doubling down...

 

[JimW]

Thanks, just read up on it a little as well.

A lot more nuanced than I thought.

It changed quite a bit over the thirty or so years too, started off trying to persuade, contraceptive availability, persuasion, later marriage encouraged but ended up being one of the key measures of grassroots officials' performance which then brought the quotas for getting women to have a coil fitted and forced abortions which is when it really screwed grassroots government. I've seen it argued that if they'd held their nerve it would have levelled out anyway as happens in most development arcs but probably hard to see that in the 1970s.

 

[WouldBe]

See #2,734

Slight problem there is that chickens can live for up to 6 years after they have stopped laying eggs. So what do you do with the unproductive chickens if you can't eat them?

 

[editor]

What about the vegetarian / vegan that started that thread who called themselves a vegegan? Or the other (vegegan) posters that agreed or were supportive? Do they not count in your weird little world?

And that's a plain lie. But feel free to post up the thread again from wherever the fuck you found it and it everyone see all the massive unanimous support the word got from all concerned. And then explain why a single thread from an obscure site should carry any weight at all.

 

[8ball]

Slight problem there is that chickens can live for up to 6 years after they have stopped laying eggs. So what do you do with the unproductive chickens if you can't eat them?

I'm confused as to what was unclear in my post.

 

[WouldBe]

Funny how you carried on using the 'vegigan' term long after the 'i' was "reasonably queried" way back in post #2505:

In fact, you empathically doubled down on that spelling in post #2606, despite JimW pointing out your error.

And again in post #2633 and #2674 etc etc etc

FFS are you deliberately taking the piss you prick. My phone has recognised the spelling and keeps putting it in unless I spot it.

 

[editor]

FFS are you deliberately taking the piss you prick. My phone has recognised the spelling and keeps putting it in unless I spot it.

What phone do you have? And how come you managed to use both spellings in a single post previously?

 

[8ball]

FFS are you deliberately taking the piss you prick. My phone has recognised the spelling and keeps putting it in unless I spot it.

I think expecting editor to be psychic about a ropey auto-correct is a little unfair.

 

[8ball]

What phone do you have?

Let's not import the Apple/Android barney into things!