Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[teqniq]

Beyond grim.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Terrible news to wake up to. RIP.

 

[Ms T]

Teenage Cthulhu And it has been confirmed by people standing next to it! Edward lawrence who freelances for the BBC is in the process of doing the actual journalistic work they should have done in the first place

Do you not think they might have been a little bit busy last night?

 

[shifting gears]

No. The state, armed to the teeth, descending on countries to blow the shit out of them. And there are consequences. You know this.

This from you, as a a staunch advocate of Western military intervention in Syria.... You're vile, you really are. Just seeking a reaction with this drivel. And talk of blowing us up to rid us of our smug faces? Let's hope you have a little trouble with your fuse and vaporise yourself in the process. A fitting end for a wretched wrong un.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Iran are fighting Daesh in Iraq and Syria. There population is majority Shia as well

And the Iranian president was due to visit France next week.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

And the Iranian president was due to visit France next week.

Just been reported that he's cancelled!

Was the golden lemon on the crack pipe last night?

 

[redsquirrel]

Bit rich coming from someone doing the standard guilt-ridden Western liberal anti-imperialist routine.

Actually I don't think GC is doing that routine.

Two years ago he argued that the West should overthrow Assad "by whatever means", put that together with his posts on this thread and rather a "liberal anti-imperialist routine" you have a liberal interventionism routine a la Blair or Hitchens.

 

[bimble]

Actually I don't think GC is doing that routine.

Two years ago he argued that the West should overthrow Assad "by whatever means", put that together with his posts on this thread and rather a "liberal anti-imperialist routine" you have a liberal interventionism routine a la Blair or Hitchens.

I'd blow you up myself, just to watch your smug grins disappear in the sulphur.

The lemon will be sleeping happily through the morning knowing everything is about him.

 

[Pickman's model]

What is the grievance then? Bombing the fuck out of countries on top of it. Doubly fucked by our ruling class?

tbh it's this sort of limited thinking, that it *has* to be in response to something, which plays an important part in failing to understand the new terrorism. do you honestly thinkthe attempts on glasgow airport or the haymarket were in any way comparable to raf attacks on us targets in west germany? seems to me these are not in response to some grievance but offensive acts of war with cold, clear and wholly rational thought behind it.

 

[A380]

As someone else said on Urban once before about the people who do this and the people who send them:

"Fuck you arseholes; you won't make us hate our neighbours"

 

[Manter]

Do you not think they might have been a little bit busy last night?

Sorry, no excuses for what was done last night. They stated something as fact that caused significant issues on the ground, and then did not withdraw it. To my knowledge still haven't- the journalists telling the centre what was actually happening only managed to get it taken down.

 

[bimble]

Just read Theresa May's counter terrorism speech to see if it looks any different this morning and it does a bit eg)' We are engaged in a struggle that is fought on many fronts and in many forms. It is a struggle that will go on for many years.".

 

[Ms T]

Sorry, no excuses for what was done last night. They stated something as fact that caused significant issues on the ground, and then did not withdraw it. To my knowledge still haven't- the journalists telling the centre what was actually happening only managed to get it taken down.

It was a fast moving, developing story. Conflicting accounts everywhere. Impossible to get completely right and to be honest what was happening in Calais was the least of their problems. Also, not exactly fully staffed on a Friday night.

 

[Pickman's model]

There are people on here who will justify IRA attacks - the killing of innocents - in the name of a political aim.

That justification - I think there is never one, btw, if that's what you're doing, you've lost - is what is in operation here.

it is curious you think the killing of ian dow or the killing of british soldiers is the killing of innocents. unless you're saying they weren't ira attacks or that some ira attacks were justifiable... but again your thinking on last night's events fails to see the attacks for what they are, aimed at slovenia and hungary and sweden as much as anyone in paris. the second and third order effects of the attack will be felt in greece and turkey.

 

[Pickman's model]

This from you, as a a staunch advocate of Western military intervention in Syria.... You're vile, you really are. Just seeking a reaction with this drivel. And talk of blowing us up to rid us of our smug faces? Let's hope you have a little trouble with your fuse and vaporise yourself in the process. A fitting end for a wretched wrong un.

i don't particularly like goldenecitrone. but you should take a long hard look at yourself over the way you've posted on this thread, perhaps your unfinest hour. you can tell a lot about someone from how they respond to adversity, and you've been very unpleasant, often utterly unneccessarily, to people who have offered no offence.

 

[Pickman's model]

As someone else said on Urban once before about the people who do this and the people who send them:

"Fuck you arseholes; you won't make us hate our neighbours"

1) some of us already hate our neighbours. some of us will get the cops to deal with them rather than deal with them ourselves. 2) i also worry about people not on urban.

 

[Manter]

It was a fast moving, developing story. Conflicting accounts everywhere. Impossible to get completely right and to be honest what was happening in Calais was the least of their problems. Also, not exactly fully staffed on a Friday night.

I am not blaming journalists out trying to report the truth. But there is something institutionally wrong - the point of the BBC is that you 'know' that even if they are 20 minutes behind other sources, they tell the truth. Because they have checked- they don't just aggregate hysterical tweets and report them as facts like some of the others. The point at which they only report one story properly and then act like sky on the others there is something seriously wrong. And an organisation that arbitrarily decides news doesn't happen evenings or weekends so it doesn't need staff has a serious problem.

You know me, you know I am not anti-BBC- but last night was shoddy. It's easy to say 'oh, but there was a bigger story somewhere else'- but does that mean we essentially have to guess which story the BBC considers to be the biggest and assume the rest are not being reported properly? Or only regard the BBC as authoritive weekdays before 6pm?

There were people trying to get information out, rearrange convoys, change what will be arriving today, find out if there are specific things whose delivery can be accelerated; being met by blank incomprehension 'but the BBC says it isn't happening'. Do you have any idea how infuriating and frustrating that was for a volunteer standing watching a fire and trying to get what she needed to help?

 

[Pickman's model]

tbh rolling news from all new channels poor - remember watching news of the potters bar train crash, comparing sky, bbc, itn, none of them did particularly well.

 

[bimble]

Wish I was as clever as the people who know exactly what/ who to feel righteously angry with. Without that I'm stuck with just sadness.

 

[Manter]

tbh rolling news from all new channels poor - remember watching news of the potters bar train crash, comparing sky, bbc, itn, none of them did particularly well.

Lots of them did really badly. But at least the BBC didn't report some of the more hysterical stuff, beheadings etc

 

[LDC]

Not a new observation, but fuck what scary, sad, and difficult times. Thoughts with all those killed and their friends and family.

Please can we try and keep this thread relatively free of stupid, nasty, and useless comments? There's plenty of important and potentially useful things to think about in the coming days.

 

[Artaxerxes]

tbh rolling news from all new channels poor - remember watching news of the potters bar train crash, comparing sky, bbc, itn, none of them did particularly well.

Rolling news in a genuine crisis is always poor and lagging, tends to rely heavily on the official line and journalists off duty. I remember the riots coverage being utter shit and having to go to twitter of all places to get updates

 

[Pickman's model]

Rolling news in a genuine crisis is always poor and lagging, tends to rely heavily on the official line and journalists off duty. I remember the riots coverage being utter shit and having to go to twitter of all places to get updates

and a lot of that was shit too.

 

[rekil]

My job finished yesterday so I'm spared the terrible takes and conspiraloonery on Monday. One cunt's advice to syrian refugees was 'get back to your muslim slums'.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Lots of them did really badly. But at least the BBC didn't report some of the more hysterical stuff, beheadings etc

John Rentoul, ed of the Indy, used last night to have a pop at Corbyn!

 

[chilango]

I think, at some point, is worth thinking about how "jihadism" (or however you want to label this movement) has evolved.

I'm no expert, so I'll keep my observations brief.

But, as with other terrorist movements in the past, there will be "waves" or "generations" of militants carrying out attacks etc. You could look at the evolution of, say, the IRA or the Red Army Fraction for easily discernible examples of this I guess.

I wouldn't want to try and define a "start point" but would tentatively identify some waves or generations.

The Palestinian struggles of the 70s
The Mujahadeen in Afghanistan
Al Qaeda
Daesh

There may be more.

But I think you can see a journey there from generation to generation.

The practical point I guess is that whilst for the current generation of Daesh stuff like Palestine or the Gulf Wars are part of their mythology and ones transmitted by older, surviving ideologues, their immediate concerns have moved on and are different.

I'm just thinking out loud though, in response to some of the posts up thread. So I'm happy enough to be wrong in my musings.

 

[laptop]

.

so why is paris uniquely vulnerable?

It's not uniquely vulnerable

 

[Pickman's model]

i feel great concern for refugees on the move through europe.

 

[bimble]

It's not uniquely vulnerable

No. Possibly paris is uniquely divided, in terms of housing / ghetto-type social geography. The Other Paris

 

[Pickman's model]

I think, at some point, is worth thinking about how "jihadism" (or however you want to label this movement) has evolved.

I'm no expert, so I'll keep my observations brief.

But, as with other terrorist movements in the past, there will be "waves" or "generations" of militants carrying out attacks etc. You could look at the evolution of, say, the IRA or the Red Army Fraction for easily discernible examples of this I guess.

I wouldn't want to try and define a "start point" but would tentatively identify some waves or generations.

The Palestinian struggles of the 70s
The Mujahadeen in Afghanistan
Al Qaeda
Daesh

There may be more.

But I think you can see a journey there from generation to generation.

The practical point I guess is that whilst for the current generation of Daesh stuff like Palestine or the Gulf Wars are part of their mythology and ones transmitted by older, surviving ideologues, their immediate concerns have moved on and are different.

I'm just thinking out loud though, in response to some of the posts up thread. So I'm happy enough to be wrong in my musings.

different muslim reslonses to different contexts different shocker.