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Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

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Knotted said:
Perhaps he was always rubbish but I never noticed, but I do think framing the discussion in terms of attitude to the West goes directly against his previous writing which criticised the concept of monolothic cultural blocks. Further his previous article (which was very strong on the whole for what it's worth) calls for celebrating diversity. Pretty much a retraction of a lot of what he has said before.
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How is he casting the West as a monolithic block? His argument is that Islamist are making the West something along those lines (though I don't think monolithic block is a good descriptor), which might be incorrect but it's not his position.
Jihadis imagine that they are waging war against the west. But the west has become in their eyes, not a set of specific nations responsible for specific acts, but an almost mythical, all-encompassing monster, the modern version of the chimera or basilisk, the source of all manner of horror and dread. And against such a monster, almost any act becomes acceptable.
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camouflage said:
An incisive article: NATO is harbouring the Islamic State — INSURGE intelligence
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Blimey. Few days ago I was at a talk by a Turkish journalist (called Zeynep Oral, the head of PEN Turkey) where she told about what happened the day after her (opposition) paper decided to publish photos of trucks loaded with arms going to Syria, which the government had claimed were full of humanitarian aid: The paper's office raided by police & editor arrested. Next day the front page was the heading 'it wasn't just the editor it was all of us, come and arrest us all' with the names of all the journalists involved below. Very brave. Lots of Turkish journalists in prison having fallen foul of laws so vague as 'it is an offence to insult the president' apparently.
 
bimble said:
Blimey. Few days ago I was at a talk by a Turkish journalist (called Zeynep Oral, the head of PEN Turkey) where she told about what happened the day after her (opposition) paper decided to publish photos of trucks loaded with arms going to Syria, which the government had claimed were full of humanitarian aid: The paper's office raided by police & editor arrested. Next day the front page was the heading 'it wasn't just the editor it was all of us, come and arrest us all' with the names of all the journalists involved below. Very brave. Lots of Turkish journalists in prison having fallen foul of laws so vague as 'it is an offence to insult the president' apparently.
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Don't know why this comes as a surprise, the Turks were identified as supplying aid and allowing ISIS free movement both of troops and supplies during their siege of Kobane.
It's just no politician has the balls to call them out on it.
 
Jimmy Turr said:
Just because they are intolerant of other Muslims, it doesn't mean they're not a part of Islam. As I said, they control Mecca, and the rest of the Muslim world seems rather passive about that.

Nobody has suggested using this fact as a stick to beat anybody.
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That passivity might have something ...everything...to do with US, British and French aircraft carriers looming in the direction of anyone who might even think about harming the Islamic State of Saudi Arabia . As well as the tens of billions in western armaments and jets supplied to their forces . Currently being used to put down an anti Saudi revolt in Yemen . While protests in Bahrain were also snuffed out thanks to the direct intervention of the Saudis . While western governments were looking on pretty happy about it .

There's no shortage of people in the Arab and Muslim world who'd love to take the Saudis down but the fact is the western states have killed or tried to kill those who tried or would try . Chiefly Saddam Hussein and Col Gadaffi . And they've tried the same with Assad but failed . And they've repeatedly threatened war on Iran , Saudis enemy in chief .

This passivity you speak of in the Muslim world is a direct result of western bombs and western threats in support of that version of an Islamic State . You're time might be better off pent addressing western passivity to Saudi Arabia , and western aggression towards Saudi Arabians Muslim and Arab opponents .
 
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Orang Utan said:
Simon Heffer nails his colours to the mast:
Paris is tragic proof that Enoch Powell was right about threats to our country
I daren't look at the comments
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Fucking hell! He sounds like he's been itching to say that. How events in France show that Powell was right about Britain, nearly 50 years later, is beyond me. In fact it is an extraordinary claim that flies in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. Disingenuous as well - Powell wasn't talking about radicalisation and extreme fundamentalism at all.

Shows, I think, how careful you have to be with criticisms of particular kinds of multiculturalism - because Heffer is critiquing the very same thing but from a very different starting point - a starting point that lays claim to the idea of what it is to be 'British', an idea that is clearly rooted in pre-post-WW2 emigration/immigration. tbh the likes of Heffer do make me want to promote diversity for its own sake, if only just to piss him right off.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Shows, I think, how careful you have to be with criticisms of particular kinds of multiculturalism - because Heffer is critiquing the very same thing but from a very different starting point - a starting point that lays claim to the idea of what it is to be 'British', an idea that is clearly rooted in pre-post-WW2 emigration/immigration. tbh the likes of Heffer do make me want to promote diversity for its own sake, if only just to piss him right off.
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pre-post-ww2? :D
 
Casually Red said:
That passivity might have something ...everything...to do with US, British and French aircraft carriers looming in the direction of anyone who might even think about harming the Islamic State of Saudi Arabia . As well as the tens of billions in western armaments and jets supplied to their forces . Currently being used to put down an anti Saudi revolt in Yemen . While protests in Bahrain were also snuffed out thanks to the direct intervention of the Saudis . While western governments were looking on pretty happy about it .

There's no shortage of people in the Arab and Muslim world who'd love to take the Saudis down but the fact is the western states have killed or tried to kill those who tried or would try . Chiefly Saddam Hussein and Col Gadaffi . And they've tried the same with Assad but failed . And they've repeatedly threatened war on Iran , Saudis enemy in chief .

This passivity you speak of in the Muslim world is a direct result of western bombs and western threats in support of that version of an Islamic State . You're time might be better off pent addressing western passivity to Saudi Arabia , and western aggression towards Saudi Arabians Muslim and Arab opponents .
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One small point, we don't have any "aircraft carriers"
 
DotCommunist said:
I thought we had things that could land a jet or let one take off :mad: where is my tax money going. Up george osbornes hooter I bet. Swizz.
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I thought the tone of his announcement was a bit... perky.

The one in which he says that the aircraft carrier that isn't finished yet, the planes for which won't be finished when it is... when they're all finished, there'll be more of them.
 
coley said:
One small point, we don't have any "aircraft carriers"
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Well you used to, and British support for these Wahhabist wankers has been going on for many decades . And you now share aircraft carriers with the French, who support these Wahhabist wankers too .
 
Casually Red said:
Well you used to, and British support for these Wahhabist wankers has been going on for many decades . And you now share aircraft carriers with the French, who support these Wahhabist wankers too .
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I've had a few cars, even own a couple of tractors, but I've had a good look and can't find an aircraft carrier anywhere?
 
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butchersapron said:
Celebrate contains recognition, it has to - it can also contain promote but doesn't necessarily have to. In is ideal world we can assume that he wouldn't want it to, what with that being the central thrust of his many articles, talks and numerous books on just this subject. And of course when he talks about national policy it's going to be top-down but that doesn't mean he can't argue within those bounds for a position that's the least worst, and that would surely be the one he outlines. And if he was throwing overboard his previous 25 years worth of work then i would expect related work on the same issue at the same time to reflect this change, rather than - as has actually happened - them restating the previous position in very emphatic terms. You cannot turn one word against 25 years. How about a generous reading that puts his use of that word or term in the context of his past uses of it i.e:

The experience of living in a society that is less insular, more vibrant and more cosmopolitan is something to welcome and celebrate.

The aim of Multiculturalism and its Discontents is to celebrate diversity while opposing multiculturalism.

Ok, he used a term he maybe shouldn't have, whilst the rest of his arguments don't support that use. So what do we conclude? That he really thinks he was right to use it and the rest of his many years arguing the opposite is junk? Or that the years arguments are what he really thinks and he just let something slip by?
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I don't want to derail any further and to clarify I don't think Kenan Malik has abandoned all of what he has been saying the past 25 years (ie. he's still a critic of institutionalising differences), but I do think he has reversed on some questions. This old article strikes a different tone:
Kenan Malik's talk on 'The changing meaning of race'

There are all sorts of aspects of culture where diversity might be a good thing in its own right, but regardless of whether the celebration of diversity is institutionalised or not, whether the celebration is top down or bottom up, I don't think diversity of values is something to be celebrated.
 
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