Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[Sasaferrato]

I'm not even talking about that - I'm talking about the psychological preparedness to a) deal with an unexpected and stressful situation, b) potentially take a human life without hesitation, deviation or repetition.

Oh yes, that too. If the circumstances merit it, you shoot. The closest I came to killing anyone was one of our own* in Hannover. I was cocked, safety off, aimed and just waiting for the driver to be silhouetted by an overhead light. Thank God, my mate, who had been asleep in the sentry box, recognised the car, and pushed the gun barrel away. I shook for quite a while afterwards, but at the time, was absolutely focussed on the task. There was no thought that I was about to kill another human being. If I had fired, there was no question of ever being charged with anything, but I am very glad indeed that I didn't, it would take a bit of living with. I still get pangs of conscience, over acts carried out decades ago, when I was younger and somewhat more stupid, which were many magnitudes less than killing someone.

*When we got off stag, we went up to his room, and battered him black and blue.

 

[Sasaferrato]

i remember victoria climbie
View attachment 79794
and she's by no means the only one. i don't doubt there has been movement within some denominations of the xian church but i think it a bold claim - to say the least - that there's been more progress in the last 20 years than the previous 1995.

Your view, and of course you are completely entitled, but I respectfully disagree. Perhaps the horror I fell about such acts in the name of Christianity, are mirrored by the majority of Muslims who do not support the acts of the hard line sects.

 

[Sasaferrato]

It is foolish and ignorant to speak of "Islam" when what you mean is "Wahabbism."

Point taken.

 

[8den]

That's just the first thing that comes up on Google. Do a bit of research, it happens a lot. Makes perfect sense really.

Thats 12 going back to 1991. Meanwhile There have been over 300 Mass shootings in the US this year, and 45 school shootings.

 

[Pickman's model]

Your view, and of course you are completely entitled, but I respectfully disagree. Perhaps the horror I fell about such acts in the name of Christianity, are mirrored by the majority of Muslims who do not support the acts of the hard line sects.

haven't mentioned the foul and vile and apparently pervasive child abuse which the catholick church covered up for many years

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, often.

12 Times Mass Shootings Were Stopped by Good Guys With Guns

Really? That's the level of evidence you're presenting? Clearly research with an agenda, which doesn't make it wrong but should make you extra-careful when reading it and working out exactly whether or not the evidence presented (the media reports) match the claim (mass shooting averted). Even a quick skim through the first few reports shows that the cases presented do not match up to the claim in most of the cases.

 

[phildwyer]

Thats 12 going back to 1991. Meanwhile There have been over 300 Mass shootings in the US this year, and 45 school shootings.

We've been through this argument so many times here that I won't repeat it. I'll just recount an anecdote.

A few years back, I witnessed a road rage incident in Manhattan. One driver got our of the car with a baseball bat and strode towards the other. The other got out of his car and pointed a gun. The bat-wielder turned around, walked back to his car and drove away.

For me that clinched the argument about gun prohibition.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We've been through this argument so many times here that I won't repeat it. I'll just recount an anecdote.

A few years back, I witnessed a road rage incident in Manhattan. One driver got our of the car with a baseball bat and strode towards the other. The other got out of his car and pointed a gun. The bat-wielder turned around, walked back to his car and drove away.

For me that clinched the argument about gun prohibition.

And if they had both had a gun... Then what?

 

[Sasaferrato]

That's the whole point, though, isn't it? 'Christianity' or 'Islam' can be used to justify a massive range of actions. There is no true Christianity and no true Islam, and it's dangerous imo to talk as if there were, precisely because the likes of IS or the Lord's Resistance Army make exactly that kind of claim for their version. Truth is that, much of the time, the action is justified post-fact by reference to some cherry-picked bit from the favoured holy text. And the holy texts contain so much stuff that you can cherry-pick from them to justify pretty much anything you like.

Like most, or perhaps most, Christians, I try and live by the New Testament. I do not regard the lunatic fringe as being representative of Christianity. Barbarity in the name of God cannot be justified.

I really don't know how to respond to you on this. Simply saying that their view is not the view of most Christians doesn't seem adequate, and seem a bit 'not me guv'.

Perhaps if you take the view, which I do, that Christianity is encompassed by the Commandments, and a Christian is someone who lives in this manner explains what I see as Christianity. Like everything Christianity, has been bastardised, by those seeking to shape things to their advantage, and I do accept that the same has happened within Islam.

 

[phildwyer]

And if they had both had a gun... Then what?

The same thing. Nobody pulls out a gun if their opponent has the draw on them.

The level of casual violence in the USA is far lower than in the UK. That's because in the USA everyone knows the potential repercussions.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Perhaps if you take the view, which I do, that Christianity is encompassed by the Commandments, and a Christian is someone who lives in this manner explains what I see as Christianity. Like everything Christianity, has been bastardised, by those seeking to shape things to their advantage, and I do accept that the same has happened within Islam.

Any attempt to live by a written code of morals involves the need to add your own interpretation, because morality is so nuanced that nobody has ever been able to produce a thorough codification of it. I don't think such codification is even possible.

The 10 commandments are a good example, I would have thought. Unless you're a principled pacifist, which I'm not and I don't think you are, under certain circumstances you don't think it is necessarily wrong to kill.

 

[bimble]

Yep. Training on how to load, fire and clean a weapon, took up considerably less time in basic training, than the 'when you may shoot, and the consequences of getting it wrong'.

It was made absolutely clear that you were responsible for your actions, and to shoot where it was not necessary, could lead to a lifetime in prison (preceded by six months in MCTC Colchester, which would have seemed a lifetime on its own.).

Should've joined the IDF.
(Very bad comic timing I know)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The same thing. Nobody pulls out a gun if their opponent has the draw on them.

Did you read the link you posted earlier? It lists examples of people doing exactly that.

 

[8den]

We've been through this argument so many times here that I won't repeat it. I'll just recount an anecdote.

A few years back, I witnessed a road rage incident in Manhattan. One driver got our of the car with a baseball bat and strode towards the other. The other got out of his car and pointed a gun. The bat-wielder turned around, walked back to his car and drove away.

For me that clinched the argument about gun prohibition.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

We have been through this before. Guns have stopped a statically insignificant amount of mass shootings. Owning a gun makes it more likely for you to be the victim of gun violence. Firearms have not been shown to be a deterrent for crime, and the US has ten times the level of gun violence than the next developed country.

 

[8den]

The same thing. Nobody pulls out a gun if their opponent has the draw on them.

The draw? Is that you John Wayne?

The level of casual violence in the USA is far lower than in the UK. That's because in the USA everyone knows the potential repercussions.

Just for shits and giggles what do you mean by casual violence?

The level of gun homicides in the US is far higher than the UK, suggesting that the kind of "casual violence" you suggests escalates into death or gun crime.

 

[Pickman's model]

Really? That's the level of evidence you're presenting? Clearly research with an agenda, which doesn't make it wrong but should make you extra-careful when reading it and working out exactly whether or not the evidence presented (the media reports) match the claim (mass shooting averted). Even a quick skim through the first few reports shows that the cases presented do not match up to the claim in most of the cases.

yeh but what do you expect of an oxbridge-educated prof?

 

[teqniq]

Cue <insert number of pages here> derailing and trolling.

 

[Pickman's model]

Cue <insert number of pages here> derailing and trolling.

none, i think we're all familiar with dwyer's skimpy evidence.

 

[phildwyer]

Just for shits and giggles what do you mean by casual violence?

Punch-ups in pubs. People think twice about kicking off if they think the other guy might be armed. I have to say this seems like common sense to me.

 

[elbows]

I do not regard the lunatic fringe as being representative of Christianity.

Take the same approach with Islam then.

 

[elbows]

Punch-ups in pubs. People think twice about kicking off if they think the other guy might be armed. I have to say this seems like common sense to me.

I don't think concepts such as mutually assured destruction work quite so well on pissed up people.

 

[phildwyer]

Cue <insert number of pages here> derailing and trolling.

Nah, Pickers is being good these days.

 

[laptop]

There are many, many other threads about gun carrying - and even more about Dwyer.

Please take both subjects to one of them. Thank you.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't think concepts such as mutually assured destruction work quite so well on pissed up people.

That depends on many factors. The role of guns in preventing casual violence is impossible to determine with precision, but anyone familiar with both the UK and the USA will have noted the difference in attitudes towards biffing someone with little or no provocation.

 

[phildwyer]

Dwyer

You're obsessed mate. Leave it out ffs.

 

[laptop]

Fuck off.

 

[phildwyer]

Fuck off.

You fuck off. Pompous prick that you are.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And probably London too?

Any pick pocket picks a pocket of mine gets 9mm of hot lead in their head!

My mum and dad went to Paris for their golden wedding and someone tried to nick my mum's handbag somewhere near the arc de triumph or whatever they call it. She started a tug of war and then said to him in the loud scary voice only she can do (I'm breaking into a cold sweat now just thinking about it lol) 'FUCK. OFF.' My dad just stood there aghast, not quite believing what he was seeing, as the robbing prick let go of the bag and legged it. I don't blame him though to be fair

 

[xenon]

Thats 12 going back to 1991. Meanwhile There have been over 300 Mass shootings in the US this year, and 45 school shootings.

Please don't engage with that stuff on this thread. You know the mess that it will lead to. No beef with you but YKWIM.

 

[editor]

yeh but what do you expect of an oxbridge-educated prof?

This personal info is irrelevant and against the rules. Please don't repeat.