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Mail: a truly despicable article ("nothing 'natural' about Stephen Gately's death")

I think that there needs to be a limit to freedom of speech to prevent incitement of hatred, and excessively inflammatory comments being made

45 minutes later:

I think the important bit is the last bit - the idea that censorship actually leads to something worse, which is that the thoughts remain, but the words are driven underground.
 
I think that there needs to be a limit to freedom of speech to prevent incitement of hatred,

There is.

It's called incitement to racial hatred and Nick Griffin has been charged with it and at least one Islamic cleric has been convicted of it.

john x
 
What can 'incite hatred'? Lets say we have a drama like Eastenders. One of the 'bad' characters happens to be gay. Does this mean EE would be inciting hatred against homosexuals by portraying a gay person in a bad light, even if their behaviour was clearly nothing to do with them being gay?
As an actual example, a (bad) Asian character in Corrie a while back made a mildly racist (towards white people) remark. This outraged the following people with no sense of proportion:

- people who thought it meant that the scriptwriters were condoning anti white racism. (Presumably those people also think the Corrie scriptwriters also condone the murder of cheeky Manc lads with designer stubble by Scottish entrepreneurs with bulging eyes).

- people who thought it was racist to portray Asians in a bad light.

:D
 
OK, here goes.

There are people on both sides getting needlessly confused about this.

Side 1. The journos whining that a ‘baying mob’ has ‘endangered freedom of speech’ have a point only if freedom of speech is defined as something that only journalists have, or even that journalists particularly have, or have more than muggles do.

What happened was that Jan Moir exercised her freedom of speech, and thousands of members of the public exercised theirs in reply.

You have to accept that if you say something that makes someone angry, they may react angrily. If you are a journalist, your words may reach thousands of people, so you may very well make thousands of people angry.

Most people understand that saying certain things may result in a black eye. And you shouldn’t see this as a bad thing; we’re social animals. This is how we learn what is acceptable in our community.


Side 2. Anyone who thinks that the state should regulate what journalists (or anyone else) say is starting down a dangerous path. If you are appalled that in the early 20th century in the ‘land of the free’ that Emma Goldman had to handcuff herself to podiums in order to finish talks on birth control, before being carted off by the police, then you will have also to put up with the fact that in the early 21st century, Christian and Muslim clerics may well be telling halls up and down this country reactionary things about homosexuals.

Offending liberal sensibilities should not be a crime. I wrote to the PCC, not because I wanted the state to intervene, but because I knew that the PCC is not the state, but the press themselves. I merely thought it a fun way to make my point.


So where does this leave us? If Jan Moir and the Mail think that what they had to say was important and needed to be said, then they should carry on saying it. This doesn’t, however, mean they are special people, with a special license to offend, and that nobody can challenge or reply.

I agree with your side 1 and side 2 points. As I said before I'm happy to see certain people offended on certain things and therefore should and do accept that people might offend me and they may well be within their rights to do so. And of course what we are doing here is exercising our own freedom of speech and encouraging those of a like mind to do similar.

I am also a little uncomfortable with the mob justice aspect. It always seems to be a lot easier to get big support for things I consider pernicious like locking up those boys who killed James Bulger for ever and ever or for hanging paedophiles, than causes I consider worthwhile. Biggest mob =/= right anymore than biggest army does. Which is why I'd say we need a decent code of conduct that people should adhere to whatever the size of their facebook group. Not easy, I'll agree.


This case has brought to my attention the PCC. I would like to see the PCC examined. I think we should be able to ask why it differs so much in character from Offcom. Why it is not independent and why it has so little power.
 
- people who thought it was racist to portray Asians in a bad light.

:D


That's a hard one that. Of course it isn't. But if every time an Asian is depicted on telly they are depicted in a bad light, in comparison to the depiction of white people then there is a problem. If this problem exists then you will get people objecting to single incidences of it, even though one swallow does not a summer make.

Reminds me of a sketch on something or other where black actors discussed their acting jobs, 10 bit parts in the bill, prisoner no. 3, murdered drug dealer, but nothing much in the way of accountant, florist etc.
 
Up until a very few years ago broadcasting was a near monopoly and was set up and regulated as such, by the Broadcasting Complaints Commission and more recently by Ofcom & the BBC Trust. It's not even close to a monopoly any more, not since the internet. Which makes it somewhat more akin tot the paper based press... and leads to the question why the unduly centralised Ofcom isn't constituted more like the PCC. Why do we need a nanny at all?
 
Biggest mob =/= right anymore than biggest army does. Which is why I'd say we need a decent code of conduct that people should adhere to whatever the size of their facebook group.

I'm not saying there is any real comparison other than playing the numbers game but the highest ever number of complaints to the BBC was over the Jerry Springer-The Opera show.

In that case however, the vast number of complaints did not represent a groundswell of genuine, general outrage, but a clearly orchestrated campaign by well-organised christian groups.

As the interweb becomes more important and people know how to play the 'critical mass' game, these 'huge numbers of complaints' will be devalued. How soon before someone creates a software that with one-click will 'seed' a complaint or opinion in all the right places?

Then we may even have to go out and protest in the streets again.

john x
 
But if every time an Asian is depicted on telly they are depicted in a bad light, in comparison to the depiction of white people then there is a problem

That's a systemic rather than specific issue tho, only becomes apparent over time and even then you've got to weight it against the portrayl of all ethnicities playing bad characters and a ton of other stuff (it could simply be that there has been a run of shows where an Asian has been the bad guy, for example).

The 'roles offered' thing is a far better way of looking at it than scheduling, IMO, as it demonstrates the (lack of) range etc that writers and more specifically casting directors, are happy and comfortable with.
 
Up until a very few years ago broadcasting was a near monopoly and was set up and regulated as such, by the Broadcasting Complaints Commission and more recently by Ofcom & the BBC Trust. It's not even close to a monopoly any more, not since the internet. Which makes it somewhat more akin tot the paper based press... and leads to the question why the unduly centralised Ofcom isn't constituted more like the PCC. Why do we need a nanny at all?

Why not get rid of laws? Why not get rid of the police?



Who says it's a nanny.


And: because we behave like spoilt little children soooo much of the time.
 
Why not get rid of laws? Why not get rid of the police?

There's been many a thread devoted to that particular subject...

Who says it's a nanny.


And: because we behave like spoilt little children soooo much of the time.

Possibly because we're treated like children; saved from the worst consequences of our actions? Insulated from abrogating our responsibilities to someone else who 'knows better' what's good for us?

Having said that, I don't necessarily disagree with your comment about spoiled children either (and it applies across the political spectrum)...
 
That's a systemic rather than specific issue tho, only becomes apparent over time and even then you've got to weight it against the portrayl of all ethnicities playing bad characters and a ton of other stuff (it could simply be that there has been a run of shows where an Asian has been the bad guy, for example).

The 'roles offered' thing is a far better way of looking at it than scheduling, IMO, as it demonstrates the (lack of) range etc that writers and more specifically casting directors, are happy and comfortable with.

Yes.

Where does 'tho' come into it?
 
There's been many a thread devoted to that particular subject...



Possibly because we're treated like children; saved from the worst consequences of our actions? Insulated from abrogating our responsibilities to someone else who 'knows better' what's good for us?
Having said that, I don't necessarily disagree with your comment about spoiled children either (and it applies across the political spectrum)...

Are we? Or do we just need some rules and to not bleat on about having rules meaning we're being ''nannied''.


People behave badly regardless of age. And if you behave badly there should be consequences. Someone has to be responsible for those and as it can't really be your mum past about age 14 someone else has to take it on.
 
well, I say it's a nanny :p

the point being that you're asking for the press to be regulated in the manner of broadcasters... does that include the sort of 'balance' nanny requires of TV docs? Aspects of this thread certainly give the impression that the press should be regulated, to prevent people being offended.

Yet we voluntarily expose ourselves to the internet, which has no such Ofnet, no regulatory body, no Complaints Commission, nothing to prevent people being offensive, no requirement for balance or truth. Why is there an impulse towards regulation in one medium and not another?.
 
Are we? Or do we just need some rules and to not bleat on about having rules meaning we're being ''nannied''.


People behave badly regardless of age. And if you behave badly there should be consequences. Someone has to be responsible for those and as it can't really be your mum past about age 14 someone else has to take it on.

cf. all the threads about anarchism ever for my responses to this line of inquiry :D

The question really lies in 'whom do we make responsible'. At present we allow the state this role in pretty much every area of life to a greater or lesser degree. It's interesting you use the word rules and not laws too, but that's a whole other thread...
 
cf. all the threads about anarchism ever for my responses to this line of inquiry :D

The question really lies in 'whom do we make responsible'. At present we allow the state this role in pretty much every area of life to a greater or lesser degree. It's interesting you use the word rules and not laws too, but that's a whole other thread...

I'm not that interested. :p

Responsible for what? For making laws/rules? for behaving themselves? For taking the consequences when they misbehave?
 
A mixture of all of those really - we expect the state to take up the consequences of substance abuse, for example. For the care of children in poor circumstance. It's who we make responsible for overseeing us, for telling us what we should and should not be doing...and then provide us with a comforting narrative when it all goes wrong.
 
more news

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/oct/21/stephen-gately-polydor-jan-moir


Polydor Records, the label representing Stephen Gately's band Boyzone, has filed an official complaint to the Press Complaints Commission about Jan Moir's controversial Daily Mail column about his death.

Moir's article, which was published on Friday, the day before Gately's funeral in Dublin, has so far attracted more than 25,000 complaints.

A spokeswoman for Polydor Records confirmed to MediaGuardian.co.uk that the label has submitted a complaint to the PCC, but would give no details as to the specific issues raised. "The PCC is now considering this new complaint," a commission spokesman confirmed.

It is understood the Polydor complaint is similar to those already received by the PCC and centres on issues such as accuracy and intrusion into grief, which relate to clauses one and five in the commission's code of practice.

Many staff at Polydor have worked with the Boyzone band members – Gately, Ronan Keating, Keith Duffy, Mikey Graham and Shane Lynch – for years.

"All of us at Polydor are shocked to hear the tragic news about Stephen," runs a statement on the homepage of the Polydor website. "Everyone who worked with him loved him. Our thoughts are with Andrew, Stephen's family and Keith, Mikey, Ronan and Shane at this terrible time."

No complaint has been received by the PCC from Gately's family or from the band or individual members. It is thought that options are still being considered but all parties have up to this point wanted to avoid getting involved in the media furore while grieving.

The PCC has not yet made a decision as to whether to investigate the complaints, the most the commission has ever received over a single article.

However, the PCC has already written to the Daily Mail for its response "to the more general complaints from the public before considering whether there are any issues under the code to pursue".

The PCC rarely investigates complaints not made by people directly involved in articles, unless they are complaints about accuracy. The regulator did last year investigate third-party complaints about press coverage of Alfie Patten after the Sun falsely reported that the 13-year-old had fathered a child, although it eventually dropped its inquiries.

In this case the PCC could launch an investigation to see if Moir's article violated parts of its code that deal with intrusion into grief, accuracy, discrimination and homophobia.

Moir, who has won a British Press Award, made a statement defending her column late on Friday, saying it was not her intention to offend, blaming a "heavily orchestrated internet campaign" for the furore and adding that it was "mischievous in the extreme to suggest that my article has homophobic and bigoted undertones".
 
How long do articles stay up on the Mail online?

The piece in question is still there (albeit re-headlined and edited) five days later.

Is this normal or is the Mail trying to make a point? :eek:

john x
 
I can't keep up to speed on this and this may have been asked.
Does anyone know who the sub was on Thursday evening whilst everyone else was out on the lash?
Thought I'd drop him a hand written recorded delivery letter.

So far no answer from my one to Dacre -surprise.
^^^ it has been signed for :)
 
And the ads pulling. Don't forget the ads pulling. That put the wind up their sails.

You might be interested in this Graun article FridgeMagnet
.

Yeah but that's what I've been saying. This is just another example of lots of people getting involved, kicking up a fuss, but in the end the paper does nothing and the PCC does nothing. Positive results are really limited to people realising that they're going to have to look elsewhere.

And a good place to look to see the possible future is the States, where there's no PCC anyway and even less chance of actually stopping a news outlet from publishing something using the law, and where advertising is even more important. What you have there is large organised political groups sending around emails and threatening advertising boycotts, and far by the most successful of them are the "pro-family" ones; these groups are thoroughly infiltrated by party and corporate interests. The result is that advertising-sponsored news in the US is even *more* biased towards a conservative, pro-state viewpoint than it has been in the past.
 
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