Macrons time is up

[frogwoman]

I mean I prefer him to Le Pen etc but he is bloody awful. Not a fan of Melenchon who has said some pro Assad/Putin stuff iirc but I know a couple of their activists through fb and it does look pretty bad.

 

[gentlegreen]

I mean I prefer him to Le Pen etc but he is bloody awful. Not a fan of Melenchon who has said some pro Assad/Putin stuff iirc but I know a couple of their activists through fb and it does look pretty bad.

Macron basically got elected because he wasn't Le Pen and his mandate has shrunk even further since...

 

[gentlegreen]

So it degenerated into car burning as per usual.
Rubbish piling up in Paris, refinery workers on strike ...
It would be massive news in the UK.

France is a weird place ...

I wonder if a sixième republique is on the cards at some point ...

The Outre-Mers have launched their own motion in the hope of getting support from both right and left ...

Retraites : une motion de censure "transpartisane" déposée à l'Assemblée par le groupe Libertés, Indépendants, Outre-mer et Territoires - Outre-mer la 1ère

Des députés ultramarins en première ligne après le déclenchement du 49.3 pour faire adopter sans vote la réforme des retraites. Sur les 20 élus du groupe indépendant Libertés, Indépendants, Outre-mer et Territoires (LIOT) qui a déposé ce vendredi 17 mars une motion de censure "transpartisane"...

la1ere.francetvinfo.fr

 

[Pickman's model]

So it degenerated into car burning as per usual.
Rubbish piling up in Paris, refinery workers on strike ...
It would be massive news in the UK.

France is a weird place ...

I wonder if a sixième republique is on the cards at some point ...

The Outre-Mers have launched their own motion in the hope of getting support from both right and left ...

Retraites : une motion de censure "transpartisane" déposée à l'Assemblée par le groupe Libertés, Indépendants, Outre-mer et Territoires - Outre-mer la 1ère

Des députés ultramarins en première ligne après le déclenchement du 49.3 pour faire adopter sans vote la réforme des retraites. Sur les 20 élus du groupe indépendant Libertés, Indépendants, Outre-mer et Territoires (LIOT) qui a déposé ce vendredi 17 mars une motion de censure "transpartisane"...

la1ere.francetvinfo.fr

i don't see car burning as degeneracy, maybe you could outline why you do

 

[gentlegreen]

i don't see car burning as degeneracy, maybe you could outline why you do

How is gratuitous destruction not degeneracy ?
Speaking for myself, even if I felt very strongly about an issue, I would have gone home after the first broken window.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Viva la French working class!

 

[gentlegreen]

9 votes short ...

The French government on Monday survived two no-confidence votes filed by opposition lawmakers incensed that President Emmanuel Macron used a special constitutional power to force through an unpopular pension reform without a parliamentary vote. The pension reforms are now adopted under French law but opposition MPs have vowed to continue their fight against the controversial new law. Follow FRANCE 24's live coverage of the proceedings. All times are Paris time [GMT+1].

• The French parliament on Monday rejected a multiparty no-confidence motion brought by a small group of centrists, Liot, against the government. The motion received 278 votes Monday, falling short of the 287 needed to pass.
• A second no-confidence vote, tabled by the far-right Rassemblement National (National Rally or RN), also failed to pass.
• The pension reforms are now adopted under French law but opposition MPs have vowed to continue their fight against the controversial new law.
• The upper-house Senate, which is dominated by conservatives, approved the pension reform last week.
• The no-confidence motions each need the backing of 287 lawmakers in the National Assembly to pass.

Protests erupt in France as govt adopts new pension law

Protests erupted across France on Monday night, hours after the government adopted deeply unpopular pension reforms after surviving two no-confidence votes. Opposition lawmakers have vowed to continue…

www.france24.com

 

[Bingoman]

Viva la French working class!

And how do protesters propose on bring down the Government

 

[gentlegreen]

Pompiers dans la foule ...

 

[Fuzzy]

it's interesting how some in France are willing to protest in this way. in Britain there was just a collective shrug when the government proposed to increase the pension age here.

 

[ska invita]

Viva la French working class!

I'm not being pedantic or having a go, but having just read this........

A Nation of Shopkeepers: The Unstoppable Rise of the Petty Bourgeoisie - Repeater Books

The petty bourgeoisie — the insecure class between the working class and the bourgeoisie — is hugely significant within global politics. Yet it remains something of a mystery. Initially identified as a powerful political force by theorists like Marx and Poulantzas, the petit-bourgeoisie was...

repeaterbooks.com

....and been convinced by it, what is interesting about France is the common purpose that often arises between the WC and the PB. Dan Evans reckons yellow vests was driven by the PB.
What makes this possible in France and not other countries has complex historic reasons - 1789 among them - but one thing is there seems to be more political coming together of the PB and WC in France, whereas in the UK there is more of a split

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'm not being pedantic or having a go, but having just read this........

A Nation of Shopkeepers: The Unstoppable Rise of the Petty Bourgeoisie - Repeater Books

The petty bourgeoisie — the insecure class between the working class and the bourgeoisie — is hugely significant within global politics. Yet it remains something of a mystery. Initially identified as a powerful political force by theorists like Marx and Poulantzas, the petit-bourgeoisie was...

repeaterbooks.com

....and been convinced by it, what is interesting about France is the common purpose that often arises between the WC and the PB. Dan Evans reckons yellow vests was driven by the PB.
What makes this possible in France and not other countries has complex historic reasons - 1789 among them - but one thing is there seems to be more political coming together of the PB and WC in France, whereas in the UK there is more of a split

If you think this is being led by the effete middle class I can’t help you:

 

[Smokeandsteam]

And while the riots catch the eye (and instill terror in those used to doing the instilling) it’s the fact that over 1 million are on the streets supporting a 10th day of general strike action by the organised working class that is the most significant.

 

[ska invita]

If you think this is being led by the effete middle class I can’t help you:

effete middle class is your characterisation not mine.
it'll be impossible to have this conversation as we're not starting at the same place. i know you read a lot on class, i'd be really interested to know what you make of that book i mentioned. the case made, historical and present, is that the PB are often not an "effete middle class", in fact have played key roles in revolutionary moments, reactionary and progressive, and are far from averse to getting stuck in. yellow vests and US capitol riots are a couple of recent examples given.

 

[gentlegreen]

it's interesting how some in France are willing to protest in this way. in Britain there was just a collective shrug when the government proposed to increase the pension age here.

It makes a difference that in France it was 65 when the Beatles sang that song, but Mitterand reduced it to 60 ...
EDIT:- I just learned it was 65 in the UK too and it was artistic license.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

effete middle class is yoru characterisation not mine.
it'll be impossible to have this conversation as we're not starting at the same place. i know you read a lot on class, i'd be really interested to know what you make of that book i mentioned. the case made, historical and present, is that the PB are often not an "effete middle class", in fact have played key roles in revolutionary moments, reactionary and progressive, and are far from averse to getting stuck in. yellow vests and US capitol riots are a couple of recent examples given.

You are missing the key point about what happening in France: the organised working class is in the driving seat. It’s called 10 days of general strike action. It’s bought millions on to the street. It’s paralysed the French economy hammering profits.

 

[ska invita]

You are missing the key point about what happening in France: the organised working class is in the driving seat. It’s called 10 days of general strike action. It’s bought millions on to the street. It’s paralysed the French economy hammering profits.

I do see that

 

[ska invita]

...my point is that it is a broader coalition than just the wc, and that is significant, in numbers and in political impact

 

[gentlegreen]

I had been wondering where to place the GJs in the broader historical context .... apparently those who were minded to ended up choosing either Le Pen or Mélonchon ...
As I commented earlier, there's clearly at least one social class not represented here - I wonder if anyone will ask them about al this ...

 

[Serge Forward]

Meanwhile, even some filth have demobilised themselves

 

[ska invita]

Meanwhile, even some filth have demobilised themselves

this is partly what I'm getting at about the coalition between WC and PB - the police in this particular case being part of the PB

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I had been wondering where to place the GJs in the broader historical context .... apparently those who were minded to ended up choosing either Le Pen or Mélonchon ...
As I commented earlier, there's clearly at least one social class not represented here - I wonder if anyone will ask them about al this ...

We know who the Gilets Jaunes are:

The largest-yet quantitative study of the jaunes found that of 160 interviewees, the huge majority are either inactifs (unemployed or retired; 25.5%), employés (service sector workers; 33.3%), ouvriers (industrial workers; 14.4%), or in professions intermédiaires (nurses, primary-school teachers; 5.2%) - in other words, they are very largely of the population that tends to live not from profits or rent, but from wages and social security.

Just over 40% identify as left-wing to some extent, and three times as many identify as far-left (14.9%) as far-right (4.7%),though by far the largest single group consider themselves “neither right nor left” (33.1%).

The Gilets Jaunes and the Unions: A convergence over what?

 

[Sue]

Pompiers dans la foule ...



View attachment 367747

Just for a bit of extra context. Firefighters in Paris are part of the military. These ones are from outside Paris, given their jackets, so are run by the Ministry of the Interior (and presumably local councils).

 

[Sue]

I had been wondering where to place the GJs in the broader historical context .... apparently those who were minded to ended up choosing either Le Pen or Mélonchon ...
As I commented earlier, there's clearly at least one social class not represented here - I wonder if anyone will ask them about al this ...

Not sure what your point is?

 

[The39thStep]

You are missing the key point about what happening in France: the organised working class is in the driving seat. It’s called 10 days of general strike action. It’s bought millions on to the street. It’s paralysed the French economy hammering profits.

Yes but what we really need is the small shopkeepers, self employed design artists and supervisor grades to be in the driving seat so that we can prove Marx's theory of class is outdated.

 

[gentlegreen]

Not sure what your point is?

So the GJs were often rural , poor / retired / unemployed and reliant on diesel to function... (it was the vandalising of speed cameras that turned me off them at the time)

But what about those in the HLMs ?
How do they fit into this political landscape ?
Do those on the streets feel solidarity with them ?

Please forgive my naivety - I am on a steep learning curve - having been ground-down by decades of idiots (notably my parents) constantly voting Tory in the UK ...
Learning how France works so I can in good conscience live there ( whether or not I ever apply formally to be considered as a French citizen) at least exposes me to actual "classical" politics with an engaged populace ...

 

[Rob Ray]

Don't underestimate the middle classes' love of violence when they're not getting their own way. Or if it's match day. Or a Friday night. Or they've been held up by people protesting in the street. Pensions are very much in the middle class wheel house when it comes to things they give a shit about. I have no doubt there's plenty of them out and about, even if they aren't a majority. The physical passivity of the chattering classes is often overstated, imo.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Yes but what we really need is the small shopkeepers, self employed design artists and supervisor grades to be in the driving seat so that we can prove Marx's theory of class is outdated.

Precis

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Pensions are very much in the middle class wheel house when it comes to things they give a shit about. I have no doubt there's plenty of them out and about, even if they aren't a majority.

Pensions are also in the 'wheel house' of working class men and women in manual back breaking work when they are told they need to work an extra two years. As France shows.

 

[Rob Ray]

Pensions are also in the 'wheel house' of working class men and women in manual back breaking work when they are told they need to work an extra two years. As France shows.

I didn't say it wasn't.