Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
To be fair on the CWO, they're generally nice and approachable while the ICC are not (though even the ICC are more approachable than they used to be).
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
Dom Traynor
Tino Pai
Troy Southgate as well was in there somewhere. It's been a while since I read that. Larry really needs to make NFTB available as PDFs for sale I'd buy the entire run again.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Maybe the ACG tech team could assist
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
AK, PM, Active, none of these groups were banned, far from it. Anyone who says this to you is a liar, or they are being lied to.
Further, none of the people who decided to pitch up outside or rant in park were banned, they were all more than wlecome to come into bookfair, their chose not to, probably I suspect, because it would hurt they facade of exclusion or about how "Anarchism is liberal / hates the working class now" or whatever it was M was talking about in the park.
The organisations which we were disinclined to host were told, if members of those organisations didn't relay that to other members, thats an internal matter. Sure, how and when, sometimes wasn't ideal, but everyone involved knows why. I'm sorry the thread feels great offence at not being kept in the loop, but we've had enough public spats with the terfs and anti-mask wallies to bother (see previous post re "holy heck I missed a chunk of thread where you all thought I was ignoring you, sorry about that").
I replied immediately to the two people who DM'd me and I thank them for holding their tongue, even as the rest of the thread meandered onwards. these organisations would be best to send messages and discuss things privately, not have public bunfights, I know you all miss wetherspoons but come on, space and place.
Various people pitched up outside, held a to do in the park etc Cool, Bookfair bother 'em at all, they did an Anarchy and from what I hear enjoyed a day out in the sun. I hope now fantastical depictions of "Red Guard" and "proffessional security services" policing anarchism can be put to bed, what happens in 2022 if up to others, I would suggest not leaving it to a couple weeks before Bookfair 2022 to get in contact and even if you don't remember, no one is banned (other than the obvious fash etc) and comrades were always welcome to come inside, even the actually terfy ones or those that think "Anarchists have abandoned the working class", come inside, maybe you'll realise that's bullshit, you might even realise that the Anarkiddies aint your enemy.
Anyways 'till next year and the ressurrection of the thread! What will the drama be about then? I can't wait. x
Further, none of the people who decided to pitch up outside or rant in park were banned, they were all more than wlecome to come into bookfair, their chose not to, probably I suspect, because it would hurt they facade of exclusion or about how "Anarchism is liberal / hates the working class now" or whatever it was M was talking about in the park.
The organisations which we were disinclined to host were told, if members of those organisations didn't relay that to other members, thats an internal matter. Sure, how and when, sometimes wasn't ideal, but everyone involved knows why. I'm sorry the thread feels great offence at not being kept in the loop, but we've had enough public spats with the terfs and anti-mask wallies to bother (see previous post re "holy heck I missed a chunk of thread where you all thought I was ignoring you, sorry about that").
I replied immediately to the two people who DM'd me and I thank them for holding their tongue, even as the rest of the thread meandered onwards. these organisations would be best to send messages and discuss things privately, not have public bunfights, I know you all miss wetherspoons but come on, space and place.
Various people pitched up outside, held a to do in the park etc Cool, Bookfair bother 'em at all, they did an Anarchy and from what I hear enjoyed a day out in the sun. I hope now fantastical depictions of "Red Guard" and "proffessional security services" policing anarchism can be put to bed, what happens in 2022 if up to others, I would suggest not leaving it to a couple weeks before Bookfair 2022 to get in contact and even if you don't remember, no one is banned (other than the obvious fash etc) and comrades were always welcome to come inside, even the actually terfy ones or those that think "Anarchists have abandoned the working class", come inside, maybe you'll realise that's bullshit, you might even realise that the Anarkiddies aint your enemy.
Anyways 'till next year and the ressurrection of the thread! What will the drama be about then? I can't wait. x
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Or has made a mistake, misheard or picked it up wrong. We need to step away from this polarisation between angels or devils.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Maybe you are a better person than I, more willing to see the grey space and not take a polarised position, However having now heard it from more than one source, someones telling fibs on purpose and those who are innocently mistaken probably know who it is x I tend to take a very sour opinion of such misnfo, especially when it is deliberate.
Bah ok, maybe someone "picked it up wrong" or what not,well fair, I implore those who may have picked it up wrong or who innocently shared such a rumour to do their best to retract it x
And the ACG?
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
One of the things that happens when communication isn’t clear and open is that misunderstandings occur.
andysays
Love and solidarity
So are you saying that they were all actually invited?
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Well this is all as clear as mud.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Rhyddical you really need to have a look at how you communicate; the stuff you've written on here is often contradictory, vague, really confusing, and comes across as being either avoidant or unable to answer simple questions, and it's really frustrating and I think it's also totally inflamed the situation. Your last long post on here a few above this one just reads like a comic book teenage anarchist or someone that's drunk or a bit unstable tbh.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
I know and you know that there is a difference between "told you cannot enter the bookfair" and "told you cannot host a stall at the bookfair". If you're claiming that the people who were told they couldn't host a stall weren't banned because they were allowed to enter, then... that's one way you can use language if you want to, I suppose, but it seems a bit pointless.
Furthermore, I think we all know that it's not entirely unknown for political disputes to escalate into physical confrontations around bookfairs, even if the bookfair organisers don't get involved in the confrontation themselves. I can't speak for anyone else, but I can imagine people who were close to a controversy might be put off going inside on those grounds. Although that's just me, maybe other people are harder and more courageous than me.
I mean, the fact that you're unwilling to say the name of a particular organisation as if they were the bleedin' Candyman/Voldemort/Haman or whatever feels not entirely reassuring here. I don't suppose you'd be inclined to tell us when it is that the ACG were told that you felt disinclined to host them?
Again, repeating myself here, but 1) "no one is banned" is a bit disingenuous if there's some people who you're "disinclined to host", and 2) I would imagine that terfy types at an anarchist bookfair, no matter how officially "welcome" they are, might be in danger of getting a slap. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, I think reactionaries at a bookfair should be vigourously challenged, but again, in a situation where people have been publicly described as having terf sympathies might be a bit skeptical about how warm a welcome they'd get. Especially at a bookfair whose organisers seem unwilling to acknowledge their existence.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Also there is a difference between being “welcome to come inside” as an individual or group of individuals - and being able to have a stall. Obviously.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
I thought we covered this last year, I use corny lingo, talk funny and look good in hi vis.
I appreciate that my manner can be stilted and how everything played out a bit difficult but it is what it is, I'm very clearly not talking about certain things and as I'm previously said I'm not going into the reasoning. Apologies if it's frustrating but it is what it is. Look, I'm not gunna keep this plate spinning or endlessly debate the same tired points, everyone whose involved knows the score in these orgs and others.
It's done with now and we've a year of comradely discussion to ensure all the pages are the same don't we.
I'm probably not gunna check this again till August next year x Thanks to those that came, lovely to see/meet some of you x See you at Manc/Bristol x
I appreciate that my manner can be stilted and how everything played out a bit difficult but it is what it is, I'm very clearly not talking about certain things and as I'm previously said I'm not going into the reasoning. Apologies if it's frustrating but it is what it is. Look, I'm not gunna keep this plate spinning or endlessly debate the same tired points, everyone whose involved knows the score in these orgs and others.
It's done with now and we've a year of comradely discussion to ensure all the pages are the same don't we.
I'm probably not gunna check this again till August next year x Thanks to those that came, lovely to see/meet some of you x See you at Manc/Bristol x
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
You lying cunt.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
What you describe as 'the same tired points' involves your refusal to even respond to a group representing one of the key strands of British anarchism. Whatever your 'reasons, we aren't telling you', you seem to think that trumps the basic requirements of organising an event - communicating with the people who respond to your request for stall applications. You might not want to talk to the ACG, you might not want to put the reasons for your refusal into words, but you haven't got a choice. Grown ups sometimes have to do things they don't like doing.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Worth reminding ourselves of this?
But even if they are talking in a personal capacity only, their evasive gibberish really doesn't reflect well on the whole collective, especially as the evasiveness, if not necessarily the gibberish, seems to be a feature of the whole collective's approach to who's allowed to have a stall and why.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
I mean, as of Rhyddical's latest set of posts, the line has shifted, apparently now the bookfair collective has always been talking to the ACG:
If what they're suggesting here is true and the Bookfair collective has actually been responding to all enquiries in a prompt and efficient fashion and the communications secretary of the ACG had just decided, for reasons unknown, to stage a massive prank on the rest of their organisation, and the rest of us by extension, that would be an amazing twist ending to the thread. But it seems like if we request anything to even vaguely support that claim, it'll turn back into one of those certain things that isn't being talked about for certain reasons.
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
You have taken disingenuousness to a new level. Politics should not be about using words to repeatedly avoid any points under discussion. It happens in Westminster but is shameful when attempted with comrades.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I’ve no idea what Rhyddical is on about. Perhaps he’s picked something up wrong, because another member of the Collective confirmed to me that the Collective had a policy of not talking to the ACG.
That account was a little confused, as it gave as a reason an event that took place after our approaches were blanked. But it was at least a clear response to my query. It was a private message but should it be necessary, if the person who sent me it allows, I will make it public.
I don’t know Rhyddical, but I do know our national secretary and also the comrade who thrice emailed the Bookfair Collective to request a stall and as a further attempt filled in the web form. If they say there were no responses to these approaches, then there were no responses. It’s not credible to suggest otherwise.
The shifting sands of the case against the ACG have been very hard to follow. It’s not an exaggeration to call it Kafka-esque. Taken as a whole, it does no credit to whatever cause it is that the Bookfair Collective believe they are defending.
On the one hand, they can organise whatever events they like and have at them whomsoever they like, but if they believe the ACG not to have a place in the same movement they occupy, then they do need to have the courage of their convictions to say so, and say it publicly.
It remains the case that the only official response we had was via the Angry Workers. (Although of course we’d worked out the answer by then).
Since Rhyddical has confirmed that he does not think the ACG is transphobic, we are left with two possibilities.
1. The Bookfair collective are “couplers” when it comes to dealing with controversial issues. (I’m using the language of a recent thread on Urban which looked at the difference between a decoupler or a coupler).
The controversy in the 2017 Bookfair was according to one side about people who wanted to distribute transphobic literature. According to those who went on to become the founders of the ACG, it was about the way in which an erstwhile comrade was treated.
Those proto-ACG members did not defend Helen Steel’s views. Not as her views stood then, and certainly not in the form they subsequently developed into. What they objected to was the way the disagreement was handled. Added to this was a banner bearing a crude anti religious slogan, which the proto-ACG members did not think was very sophisticated but which they nevertheless thought should not have been dealt with the way it was, using the terms used against it.
Couplers find those sorts of distinctions difficult, and so would come to think of the proto-ACG members as defending Helen’s views and defending the views expressed on the banner.
Add into this the desire we have already seen to polarise people into goodies of good intent and baddies of bad intent and we have ourselves a misunderstanding that will take years to untangle, if ever.
I would add here that this disagreement was prior to the existence of the ACG, and involved only a small minority of the current membership. The whole membership is therefore being judged on an incident that took place before the organisation existed and in which most of us were not involved.
But it has led to the ACG being slandered as “transphobic”. These rumours get back to us, so we know they are about. They are unacceptable and must cease.
2. The alleged doxxing. First, this took place after the failure of the Bookfair Collective to respond to the ACG, so it cannot be a reason for the lack of response.
Secondly, it revealed no details not already in the public domain. It only connected the names of online accounts. No real life address was revealed.
Thirdly, it was not carried out by or with the knowledge of the ACG. We do not know who this was, nor did we authorise it.
If the Bookfair Collective wish to clear up any of this, they could start by making public what their member Rhyddical has said on this thread: that they do not believe the ACG to be transphobic. That would be an honourable goodwill gesture.
Otherwise I’m afraid it’s clear that what they want is continued confusion and speculation. And if that is the case, I don’t see why the ACG should bother trying to communicate.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I
I think it's appalling that the bf organisers set themselves up as arbiters of what's acceptable in the anarchist movement and even worse that they do it in an idiosyncratic and half-arsed way. I don't know what many attendees or groups present in 2017 or indeed 2021 think of trans people or terfs. Or climate change or Grimsby's chances of returning to the football league. It's not really up to the organisers to select one issue and judge people on that (and then as in the case of the ACG get it so egregiously wrong). It's for them to offer a space to people who identify as anarchists - not those who are identified by the organisers as anarchists. It's not for them to promote or censor views or to impose unspoken conditions.
“Join your local anarchist group and spend your time untangling long running beefs with other anarchist groups relating to subjects you have no interest in and involving people you don’t know! Yes, it’s a Man’s/Woman’s/Non-binary person’s life in your local anarchist group!”
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
What pisses me off is the superior tone taken by Rhyddical and also LDN Bookfair: 'oh look at you people yapping on page after page... I may not comment till next year'. The bottom line is you've deemed the ACG transphobic, it seems, but haven't got the guts to say that in public or to the movement. And the London Bookfair is about the wider movement, not just the personal preferences of the organisers,
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
In all fairness to the organisers, maybe this is my platformist side coming out, but I'm perfectly happy for the bookfair organisers to decide who they want at their bookfair, on whatever grounds they see fit, freedom of association and all that. But this weird silence/denial that any decisions have been made/suddenly claiming that they'd been communicating with people all along and any communication problems must be someone else's fault is not a good or responsible way of doing that.
Yeah, it is all a bit "can you stop speculating so much?" "sure, fine, just explain what you're doing and we won't need to speculate anymore" "no. <3 we're not going to tell you anything. Now will you stop speculating?"
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
In some ways, that'd be fair enough if a few people put a Bookfair on in their town or city - although still pretty weird and they'd need to explain if they excluded established anarchist groups. But the London one, especially as you are taking on the long history and accumulated hard work put into the other events over decades, is tied to a movement and various groups whether the organisers like it (or them) or not. And it's fucking arrogant, individualist, and bad political form to just decide established anarchist groups aren't welcome (or whatever bollocks term that's been used).
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