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London Anarchist bookfair 2020

The vitriol in this divide is really alienating to those of us on the periphery of the movement. It certainly is a barrier to making the substantial effort it would take to get involved in the scene. Why bother when you see supposed allies test each other like this?

I hope to go along to the Bookfair and wish it's organizers well.
 
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Tbh the only way this is going to end within @ circles at any rate is if there's a recognition by both your 'gc' lot and trans people that engagement, communication and honest debate is better than confrontation. Any road toward an accommodation really not helped by people adopting one side or the other and not seeing or refusing to see the shortcomings of both trans activists and 'terfs' behaviour, for example the decision to leaflet the last bf with an entirely unanarchist but extremely provocative leaflet, and the disgraceful theft and destruction of the book fair banner.

If the state had wondered how to introduce a debate which appeared arcane to many onlookers but which would viciously divide revolutionaries they couldn't have lighted on a better one than this, which has exposed the utter inability of anarchists and related troublemakers to bring people together in this case and which has fractured longstanding friendships, relationships and alliances.
 
If it's alienating to those on the periphery, it must be beyond perplexing to anyone not in any kind of left sphere showing an interest. No doubt they would be hastily shown the door anyway if an incorrect opinion is expressed.

What brings up all sorts of questions for me is that the real hatred and vitriol in this debate seems to be directed almost exclusively by trans-women towards women. I have often expressed the same opinions as female friends of mine about this and I seem to be able to have discussions about it whereas the women I know doing the same are branded as transphobes and Nazi's.

Anyway, I'm out on the subject, let's hope it all gets subsumed into the more important areas we share and can fight together on.
 
What brings up all sorts of questions for me is that the real hatred and vitriol in this debate seems to be directed almost exclusively by trans-women towards women. I have often expressed the same opinions as female friends of mine about this and I seem to be able to have discussions about it whereas the women I know doing the same are branded as transphobes and Nazi's.

And cis male trans allies having a pop at women whilst convinced they are right on progressives in their own heads.
 
And cis male trans allies having a pop at women whilst convinced they are right on progressives in their own heads.

The obssessively gender critical cis men who have dominated the trans debate on here shows how much that cuts both ways.

But is this helpful, on this thread? Maybe better to try keep things strictly bookfair related and if people really feel the need to discuss which side is the worstest then bump the other thread?
 
The obssessively gender critical cis men who have dominated the trans debate on here shows how much that cuts both ways.

But is this helpful, on this thread? Maybe better to try keep things strictly bookfair related and if people really feel the need to discuss which side is the worstest then bump the other thread?

I'm not referring to here. But we have the episode at Hyde park, the episode with Helen Steel plus other things I've witnessed where cg women are targeted offline. And some of the people involved in those most certainly will be attending the book fair. But yeah, probably unhelpful to kick that debate off in full again here.
 
Meanwhile, the Anarchist Communist Group sez:
We in the ACG oppose transphobia. In our aims and principles we stress the importance of ending all oppressions as well as an end to capitalism and the State.

In an anarchist communist society there will continue to be differences between people, a flourishing of diversity as people are freed from the indoctrination and limitations of this society. However, these differences will not mean new hierarchies or inequalities. We fight today against all oppressions and inequality both because of the hardship and suffering it causes and because we need to unite as a class if we are to be effective in our struggles.

We fully recognise that the experience of transgender people has been one of inequality, discrimination and violence. The struggle for equality is difficult and needs to be supported.

The particular relationship between trans women and women who are born female and socialised as women has been fraught and has resulted in extreme polarisation, making it very difficult to unite against patriarchy, gender oppression and capitalism. Sensitivity and understanding of the oppression that different groups experience – females socialised as women, trans women, trans men, and non-binary – is needed in order to move forward.

We must come together to end all oppression as well as help create a united working class movement which can effectively challenge capitalism and hierarchical society.
 
Look, end rant here...
Transphobia kills people.
Whether full TERF or just moderately bigoted, The encouragement of the hostile environment towards trans women in particular, leads to a massive mental health crisis, the normalising of physical assaults and work place prejudic. The tolerance we have for it in British Anarchism is fucking appalling and our comrades world wide really have no clue about why we've allowed people with social capital to poison the well and cause so much dischord.

Transphobia has no space in our movement, it's not to be debated, tolerated or given an ear. Transphobes can fuck right off.

And right there is where you lose credibility - "it's not to be debated". Anarchism is about a TRUE form of democracy. It's not about mug cunts telling people what they can or can't talk about.


Commentary that “we're authoritarian” because we'll keep out bigots smacks of nazi trash saying the really Fascists are those protesting them. The wilful ignorance of how undermining an entire community with leaflets and words can lead to violence, murder, suicide and institutional prejudice is fucking bullshit and we are all a lot smarter than that.

Nice try, but turnaround only works if you have a valid point. You don't, and the fact that you have to insinuate Nazism on the part of anyone who calls you out, shows that you have no argument, just abuse.
Yes, words can lead to violence, not just for the trans community, but for everyone. Try remembering that before you make insinuations about people's politics.

Heck such an event – even with out hyperbolic stuff – one with Women's Place and co, Trots, Eco-Fash, Stalinists, China No#1 types and Phalangists would no doubt be well attended and a hotbed for discussion and barny.

More attempts at guilt by association.
 
And right there is where you lose credibility - "it's not to be debated". Anarchism is about a TRUE form of democracy. It's not about mug cunts telling people what they can or can't talk about.
I think you've misunderstood, that Rhyddical doesn't mean it can't be talked about but just as anarchists don't give fascism credibility by debating with fascists, even tho we talk about fascism a lot, that while we talk about transphobia he doesn't think we should debate with transphobes. I use the example of fascism to illuminate what I take to be his meaning and not to equate transphobes and fascists. I don't entirely agree with him, because so much of this debate is within the anarchist movement and to resolve this a great deal of talking to people one may disagree with will need to be done
 
I think you've misunderstood, that Rhyddical doesn't mean it can't be talked about but just as anarchists don't give fascism credibility by debating with fascists, even tho we talk about fascism a lot, that while we talk about transphobia he doesn't think we should debate with transphobes. I use the example of fascism to illuminate what I take to be his meaning and not to equate transphobes and fascists. I don't entirely agree with him, because so much of this debate is within the anarchist movement and to resolve this a great deal of talking to people one may disagree with will need to be done

What is a transphobe, though? From all that Rhyddical has written, it seems that their definition is "any cunt who disagrees with me".
 
I think you've misunderstood, that Rhyddical doesn't mean it can't be talked about but just as anarchists don't give fascism credibility by debating with fascists, even tho we talk about fascism a lot, that while we talk about transphobia he doesn't think we should debate with transphobes. I use the example of fascism to illuminate what I take to be his meaning and not to equate transphobes and fascists. I don't entirely agree with him, because so much of this debate is within the anarchist movement and to resolve this a great deal of talking to people one may disagree with will need to be done

On that note, someone who I don't always see eye to eye on in terms of the trans/terf issue but would still count as a comrade and friend posted this today:

In a Postscript to the thoughts on anti-fascism today: There are factions of ‘antifa’ willing to identify as fascists, or at least rightists deserving physical opposition, anyone who does not sign up to specific positions on other issues. This has emerged notably in the current ‘debate’ on transphobia and the fierce argument between gender-critical feminists (labelled ‘TERFs by some) and an element of the trans rights movement and some allies. No platforming – physically preventing known fascists from speaking, debating, as well as gathering or meeting, a central plank of anti-fascism, is being extended to women who attempt to meet to discuss how the push to recognise ‘self-identification’ as the only necessary or acceptable definition of whether someone is the ‘gender’ they say they are. ‘TERFS’ are derided as nazis, bigots for whom the same treatment is needed. This process involves mainly targeting of feminists, often women who have been in the social movements we have built for many years, and has included blockading meetings, threats both online and in person, ostracism, exclusion. Anyone who suggests that there may be a discussion to be had as to how women’s rights and trans rights intersect and may in some cases collide, gets attacked – but its women who get the runt of the abuse. Some anti-fascist groups, taking a lead from the USA, where this process is several years further along, are openly lumping ‘terfs’ – ie feminists who disagree with some aspects of some transgender ideas – in with fascists. I think this is a mistake.

Many of us draw lines, if only in our heads – these people are on my side, these people are on the other side. The line changes over time for many of us. And depending on where you come from and where you place your politics, your sense of self, that line is going to be drawn in a different place. But if you want to come together to form social movements, either to oppose processes taking place or to fight for a positive change, those lines have to be re-thought. If I’m honest there are elements of the ideas of some gender critical feminists and of pro-trans rights activists that I fully agree with and some in both camps I find repulsive and nasty… but overwhelmingly I would view these movements as BOTH being part of a wider culture I would support. Where rights and interests meet and clash and mix within what I see as social movements with wider common goals is, I suggest, a point for discussion and debate, questioning and dialectic – not ostracism and no platforming.

In some ways this is a symptom of a wider syndrome, paralysingly epidemic at the moment – a closing down, a bunkering, into ideological fiefdoms, from which we can all take potshots at each other for not being in our corner on everything. Meanwhile the environment goes to shit, the exploiting classes gleefully suck more of our blood and rightwing movements are on the rise. People drawing lines in the sand might want to consider where the line between ‘them’ and ‘us’ really lies.

From here:
Some reflections on local anti-fascist struggles in South London in 1991
 
That’s funny, the real hatred I’ve come across is almost exclusively aimed at trans-women by cis women.

Yup, for sure some women have been to trans-women. But within the anarchist movement and slightly wider scene as that's what we're talking about here? Nope, only seen, heard, and read it one way, towards women from trans-women and men.
 
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On that note, someone who I don't always see eye to eye on in terms of the trans/terf issue but would still count as a comrade and friend posted this today:



From here:
Some reflections on local anti-fascist struggles in South London in 1991

I think the conclusion is spot on really, and that perhaps what needs to take place is an examination of how some of these problems and perceived clashes addressed within an anarchist framework. I haven't seen anyone from either side attempt to address real life practical problems, such as what if a cis woman won't enter a refuge because she finds the presence of a perhaps newly transitioned trans woman threatening, or what happen to a trans woman who needs a refuge but can't access one because it is cis women only. And as much as possible these debates should be informed by those working class people it affects, in this example refuge residents and workers, not lofty philosophy academics or angry Goldmiths kids. Now it may be that people going into that will find positions illegitimate, and that may even lead to a consensus that some positions are illegitimate but I think the pragmatic problems have to be discussed, amongst anarchists, in the spirit of mutual aid.

I do take issue with the first paragraph. The meetings that have been protested are not just women discussing the impact of self ID. They have been used by open transphobes in some cases, to push anti-trans narrative and conspiracy theories that I'm sorry but do place trans people at heightened risk of social violence. Look at the video which starts the other thread. Even Woman's Place, arguably the most moderate group have as one of their demands a strengthening of the Equalities Act in favour of cis women which in practice means a significant loss of rights for trans women. Rights that many trans people consider vital to live in safety and with dignity. How many other groups in society would just concede this without a fight? Are trans people supposed to go okay, well you want to take away our rights, and you have people on platforms accusing us of being fetishists and paedophiles and rapists and you show slides of us and mock us to a guffawing audience, but thats fine, go GC feminism? Whilst I don't think the way some protests have been conducted have been helpful, and I havent attended any, the idea that meetings in which an already marginalised group is attacked from all sides can and should be held without any protest seems naive at best to me. And from a trans perspective, the fact these meetings are taking place at all, combined with the fact they have such powerful friends on the right, is actually fucking frightening, a lot more frightening than some anonymous dick telling me to die in a fire on twitter.

I think there has to be aknowledgement that harm has been done on both sides, that a lot of this campaigning is not benign, and whilst the tactics may have been misguided it is understandable why some trans people and allies have chosen to resist it. And perhaps both sides can try and draw a line in the sand and start looking at ways to move forward. I am not optimistic that this will happen sadly though.
 
We've no issue with these matters being discussed.
You'll see no Bookfair 2020 statement denouncing events which genuinely encourage developmental dialogue between these two aspects.

I personally would HIGHLY advise you to organise a conferance/bookfair/seminar that makes a genuine effort to build developmental dialogues.

Bookfair 2020 isn't it.

Some argue that we as an Anarchistic community need platforms willing to find common ground and use it as a platform for developmental with xenophobes, homophobes and working class capitalists.

Bookfair 2020 isn't that either.

There was a time when queer rights,feminism and anti-colonialism were all negated because there wasn't a "clear consensus" within the Anarchist movement.

Those were shitty times and we shouldn't return to them because the moderate sock puppets of bigots wants a seat at the table.

Mind you I'd argue that there is a clear consensus that transphobia isn't welcome within Anarchism. Since now ACG have finally put out a statement against transphobia there isn't a single body of Anarchists who support,endorse or tolerate transphobia. (Least not one that isn't also on shitlists for other reasons)

So Anarchists that arn't savvy with trans rights, either respect the space, keep it to yourself or don't come and if you have the will, set up a seperate event to show the world that folk like me are totally wrong and build dialogues.. more love to you.

Glad thats sorted.

So, We've got a whole bunch of interesting things planned and in the works already and we've still got fourteen months to go.

What kind of things have you always wanted to see at Anarchist Bookfairs? What can we do to make it better for you, and help empower new comrades? Would love to hear your throughts.
 
Maybe it is just a language thing but I am in total agreement with the statements of the ACG and the kink Fozzie Bear gave while I have significant issues with the above post and statement on the bookfair website.

Despite in previous posts stating that that transphobia is a sliding scale you seem to continually divide people into boxes - the transphobes and the non-transphobes, the xenophobes and the non-xenophobes. I'm not interested in
platforms willing to find common ground and use it as a platform for developmental with xenophobes, homophobes and working class capitalists.
(BTW what is a working class capitalist when they are at home?)

What I am interested in is best summed as
but overwhelmingly I would view these movements as BOTH being part of a wider culture I would support. Where rights and interests meet and clash and mix within what I see as social movements with wider common goals is, I suggest, a point for discussion and debate, questioning and dialectic .
which I see feeding into "an examination of how some of these problems and perceived clashes addressed within an anarchist framework", as outlined by smokedout above.

There are few ideological racists in the UK in 2019 but racism is still endemic and systemic in our society.
There is a strong majority of support for tighter immigration controls, something that would undoubtably have racist consequences, yet there was also strong majorities that were outraged and appalled by the treatment of those caught up in the windrush-scandal, despite that treatment being a consequence of the tighter immigration controls. So are those that support tighter immigration controls and are appalled by the windrush-scandal racists or non-racists? To me such a question is not just pointless it is an active hinderance to any action against racism.

None of the above means that those committed to prejudices should not be called out as racists/sexists/transphobes, but just as calling everyone who favours tighter immigration controls a racist is counterproductive so is calling anyone that you see as not 'savvy with trans rights' a transphobe.
 
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Some argue that we as an Anarchistic community need platforms willing to find common ground and use it as a platform for developmental with xenophobes, homophobes and working class capitalists.

Yeah?
 
Mind you I'd argue that there is a clear consensus that transphobia isn't welcome within Anarchism. Since now ACG have finally put out a statement against transphobia there isn't a single body of Anarchists who support,endorse or tolerate transphobia. (Least not one that isn't also on shitlists for other reasons)

Nobody is arguing that transphobia is acceptable. The argument is whether or not your definition of transphobia is correct, and whether you're entitled to impose it on anarchists who disagree with you (and the consequences of that).
 
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Shitlists ie Even outside of this little bubble of conversation there are a whole bunch of people and groups with shite politics that none of use would touch with a barge pole.

Even if the "list" exists in our heads we all know there are people and groups that are a bit dodge to say the least.

"Working Class Capitalists"
is a term I ran across the other day for those temporarily embarrassed millionares who support the tories or are ancap fucks who are just waiting to be rich but find themselves stuck with us lot right now lol

Athos, what you don't seem to see is that people are arguing that transphobia is acceptable, it very much is a thing and often arguing against the very concept of being trans saying that it is all mental illness etc, n yheah thats from people who also call themselves Anarchist and/or Feminists.
Even on this thread. People have said transphobic trash and no one said "err, thats dodge as fuck" because they say "but I'm not transphobic... it's just the truth" or something with the next breath.

You are asking for honed down codified definitions of Transphobia but they don't exist. They don't exist, not because people arn't aware of the bigotry, but because we don't wish to provide loop holes and symantical hiding holes like the shite that Tommy (islam isn't a race) Robinson and Andy (I'm just a journo
) Ngo hide behind. So many of the transphobic crowd pretend not to be transphobic. Generally this means spewing bile in one place then putting on the public face elsewhere. This is seen time and time by the people paying attention.

The same reason Antifa know that X n Y are nasty nasty bastards evewn if they claim neautrality in public.

I'd have a whole lot more time personally for the "not transphobes" if calling out the hideous shite their peers are spewing but not a single time in all the massive trollfest that they kicked off for Bookfair 2020 has one said to another "woah now, thats a bit much" as transphobes quite hapilly call trans people fetishists, rapists, peadophiles and destroyers of all things Lesbian. It's fucking bullshit so yeah we keep our definition of Transphobia broad and we'll take specific situations in context. Least to say , shouting out the Women (noun) trash, prewtending that you arn't aware how it undermines the equalioty of trans women and fosters bigotry and echoing Posie Parker is not savvy and won't be tolerated. This is what Helen Steel chose to share with out twitter and what saw her blocks.

If you are looking for a barometer of transphobia that crosses the line, it's that.

But hey like I say, no doubt lots of people who want to attend to enjopy the talks and stalls will do the decent thing, respect the space and keep it too themselves.
 
Some argue that we as an Anarchistic community need platforms willing to find common ground and use it as a platform for developmental with xenophobes, homophobes and working class capitalists.

Yeah?

Yep. I've seen all of those arguing for in my time, usually with the notion that we need to be uniting the "working class" and we need to get over our differances.

Neutrality is the face of oppression is the side with the oppressor and when we say come on guys "let's all just chat it out" and we ask the vunerable to argue their very existance to people who spend their politics might on crushing them and removing their rights, persecuting them politically and personally we have to ask ourselves if treating the oppressive faction like their position is worth debating with a lot of scrutiny.

Generation Identity have lots of notions about why Europe should be white and how space for white people whould be respected. They are notably quite popular amongst young working class blokes... they claim not to be racist. They have statements about how they are not racist. I mean what's your definition of xenophobia anyways? There are a few Anarchistic groups (NAM / NA/ SR/ 100 Hands) that also claim not to be xenophobic but simply speaking "the truth", should we invite them? Do we quibble on our definitions there? no, do we fuck and we respect anti fascist comrades when they say "oh these dickheads are dodge".
 
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