ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It would be argued that their very presence was threatening/abusive. There's always "reasons" to exclude people who you can't/won't argue against in a rational manner.
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
It would be argued that their very presence was threatening/abusive. There's always "reasons" to exclude people who you can't/won't argue against in a rational manner.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
How are "objectionable" views categorised as such, and who produces the list of objectionable views. It's generally NOT categorised or produced by consensus, but by fiat.
Now, to me fiat isn't exactly anarchist, but maybe I'm old-fashioned.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you'd have to ask each group how they do that, i'm not standing in the way of anarchist organisations to determine how they act internally.
Source: Your own eyes, and your pre-established prejudices.
So, Posie Parker and - quite literally - a couple of other gender-critical feminists have links to the Christian right, and that means everyone who shares that philosophy is collectively guilty of the crimes of a few, and you don't see parallels between your own behaviour and that of fascists? FFS!
Genetically, trans women ARE men, a fact that needs to be marked with regard to future medical treatment, medication dosage, post-middle age health checks etc. Forgetting that isn't cool, and neither is traducing someone who's done more for the people than you'll ever achieve.
The fact that you're blind to the parallels of your "broad sweeps" with authoritarian catch-all rule-making and the fact of hierarchism in your behaviour, makes you little different from "Luke".
Anarchism is about coming together as equals, talking out differences and reaching a consensus, not about pointing fingers and shrieking "you're banned" at anyone who thinks slightly differently - and seemingly, more rationally - than you. If you think that what you're doing is anarchism, then I strongly suggest you therapeutically twat yourself in the head with a lump hammer.
Bunch of hierarchists imposing their views on others.
You're shit, and you know you are, hence the semi-incoherent, repetitive self-justification for being cunt.
"Anarchist organisation".
I'd be more interested personally in hearing the views of gender critical women who are anachists then all this bollocks from the gender critical logic brain men again.
Athos
Well-Known Member
See post #315.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that wasn't so hard, was it? surprised it took you 20 minutes tho.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yeah, because women's brains don't do logic, eh?! FFS.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Not hard at all. I'd been frank about my position from the outset.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so often you like to gather all possible facts before venturing an opinion however timid
Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm embarrassed for you that you have to revert to this playground stuff.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i only had to revert to your 354 for my cue. but obvs it's not playground stuff when you do it...
Athos
Well-Known Member
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
out of curiosity when was the last time you attended an anarchist bookfair in london or elsewhere?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Probably five years ago. Not that it impacts on the content if anything I've argued.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
bearing in mind your 315 with the let people argue it out line, how would you, imagining yourself as a bookfair organiser, have resolved the issues of 2017 and what do you think the bookfair organisers should do in advance of october next year to minimise the possibility of disruption?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Off the top of my head, I suppose:
- Making it clear that all anarchists, including trans comrades, are welcome and valued.
- A clear statement of the principle that the only views that anarchists will be prevented from expressing are those about which there is a very clear consensus amongst anarchists to be incompatible with anarchism.
- A warning to prospective attendees that this will mean people from both sides being exposed to ideas they might not like, and that it's not reasonable for anyone to expect the organisers to prevent that. And an explanation of why i.e. the importance of anarchists bring able to freely exchange views, and enter discussions.
- That name calling, intimidation or abuse won't be tolerated (from either camp).
- An appeal to people to confine discussions to the relevant fora, so this issue doesn't dominate every aspect of the event (that opinions aren't forbidden doesn't mean it's appropriate for them to be aired in any way at any time e.g. shouting across the floor).
- An appeal for discussions to be held in as comradely manner as possible, emphasising that, notwithstanding some significant differences, there's more that anarchists have in common.
- An explanation that failure to engage respectfully is likely to mean the bookfair can't continue.
- A reiteration that the bookfair is for anarchists, and that any disruption that threatens its viability by those whose views are clearly at odds with anarchists will likely result in their ejection.
Would probably refine that a bit with more time to think. And would take on board others' comments, of course.
What about you?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
apart from what you've written,
- that people welcome to leaflet outside the event, but in the interests of circulation and clearing up please no leafleting among the stalls - people welcome to leave free material of all sorts on the tables for this purpose, or to distribute it to interested people from stalls or in meetings.
- that while the bookfair organisers are happy to resolve disputes which fall within the actual organisation of the day, disputes between people or groups which have arisen outside the bookfair should be kept outside the bookfair: while not a safe space (exposure to ideas you might find objectionable for example) it is not a battleground.
- the formation of an arbitration panel (membership to be determined, perhaps a couple of people from national groups) to defuse arguments which arise on the day but aren't related to the administration of the bookfair
Athos
Well-Known Member
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
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Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Forgive me, but that is a lot of posting lol so I'm going to try and reply in short form (apologies)... did say I wasn't going to talk about it but heck there is some need for response... truly tho, this is the last I'm going to talk about our policy of transphobes and I'd love if y'all wanted to talk about the other DUH DUH DUH problems we face or any of the AWESOME shit we'll be hosting.
Redsquirrel
- The only people banned from social media were people who shared overtly transphobic stuff and those who dogpilled onto a massive troll campaign. I suspect some more moderate people got lumped into that, which is unfortunately but if you look, massive efforts were made the engage in conversation and debate issues with several expansive threads taking off. We're happy to talk and debate with those who do not spew bigotry. It's sad that the moderate/concerned camp is so deeply embedded with the bigots but thats how the politics of hate works, thats why Steve whose worried about the borders ends up full on right wing, coz he's mates with Gaz who he used to think was a little extreme.
Athos
Trans women are women who were born with various bit of male biology. “women” is a social construction to explain our social which has a heavy weight to the binary and trans women should be given equal esteem, rights and acknowledgements as women. Fuck giving women equal esteem, rights and acknowledgement as men was/is hard enough for us, trans women ( and trans men) face a additional layer of prejudice and inequality due to factors of their identity.
My rhetoric is born of people spewing utter bile at us, including from people I'd otherwise consider Anarchists. I don't mean it to sow division with people willing to talk. However look at the thread, look at some of the bullshittery in it, it isn't isolated.
My personal and Bookfairs 2020 definition of “transphobia” is deferred to what trans comrades see as transphobia. This isn't in the hyperbolic “you used the wrong pronoun by accident, now you are excommunicated” manner that detractors might like to present but on the “I'm sharing media denouncing trans women as rapists” which is in reality more the kind of shit that people hand out (yes including at 2017 Bookfair, there was a bit on the leaflet for it).
End of the day were not after a dictionary definition and a bit of paperwork to relay on but lived experience and the position of those on the sharp side of the oppression.
For groups who share that stuff like to pretend they are moderates by also sharing more mild mannered stuff, to those uninvolved that seems reasonable, to those who deal with it regularly it's deeply problematic. It's exactly the same shit Britain First used to do, sharing “not racist” media so people couldn't call them racist and heck it's what Tommy Bobinson does now.
Transphobes sharing “not transphobic” stuff to escape from the pile they've posted or said elsewhere is not something we'll give platform or space too.
Lynn
I am 100% I would have seen leaflets however happy to admit I might have missed something, If there were leaflets I'm sure someone posted them online, I've had a look and was unable find some... Please share if you know where they are hosted?
I suspect this was more of a “few things were handed out” rather than a “leafleting”.
They were kicked out for being part of Helen's sit in which the venue decided not to entertain.
Pickman's Model/ Smoked out/ many others
No doubt many people with GC views will come in, respect the space and enjoy the Anarchism. I suspect a few Tankies, Assad lovers, Stalinists etc will come along too. It's the nature of the beast really. Heck sometimes that is a good thing as via osmosis and the odd convo people learn and develop their thinking.
There seems to be this thinking that we're a fucking border agency and going tobe checking peoples politics at the door, we ain't. Don't come in with the intent to cause a ruck or share bigotry and you'll probably be aight. Unless you're well known for doing so... sadly there are plenty of people who can think of nothing better for a Saturday than going to the Anarchist bookfair and being a dick for a variety of reasons.
Re; Stalls and policing Anarchists. We won't be giving a stall to the National Anarchist Movement either for the same reasons as Women's Place won't have a stall. There will however be a wild array of Feminist stuff as the politics of the oppressed are a vital aspect to the revolutionary movement ~(obviously)...
Again, tho we might not provide a platform, nothing at all is stopping GC Anarchists from holding an event of the fringe and sharing their ideas in an event of their own making especially one which “isn't transphobic” or whatnot. We all have free association and the ability to hold assembly, I personally think we should do so with respect and understanding how our actions might harm others (including those with sensory issues, coz fuck folks, hostility in the safer space can fuck off regardless of it's genesis)
Redsquirrel
- The only people banned from social media were people who shared overtly transphobic stuff and those who dogpilled onto a massive troll campaign. I suspect some more moderate people got lumped into that, which is unfortunately but if you look, massive efforts were made the engage in conversation and debate issues with several expansive threads taking off. We're happy to talk and debate with those who do not spew bigotry. It's sad that the moderate/concerned camp is so deeply embedded with the bigots but thats how the politics of hate works, thats why Steve whose worried about the borders ends up full on right wing, coz he's mates with Gaz who he used to think was a little extreme.
Athos
Trans women are women who were born with various bit of male biology. “women” is a social construction to explain our social which has a heavy weight to the binary and trans women should be given equal esteem, rights and acknowledgements as women. Fuck giving women equal esteem, rights and acknowledgement as men was/is hard enough for us, trans women ( and trans men) face a additional layer of prejudice and inequality due to factors of their identity.
My rhetoric is born of people spewing utter bile at us, including from people I'd otherwise consider Anarchists. I don't mean it to sow division with people willing to talk. However look at the thread, look at some of the bullshittery in it, it isn't isolated.
My personal and Bookfairs 2020 definition of “transphobia” is deferred to what trans comrades see as transphobia. This isn't in the hyperbolic “you used the wrong pronoun by accident, now you are excommunicated” manner that detractors might like to present but on the “I'm sharing media denouncing trans women as rapists” which is in reality more the kind of shit that people hand out (yes including at 2017 Bookfair, there was a bit on the leaflet for it).
End of the day were not after a dictionary definition and a bit of paperwork to relay on but lived experience and the position of those on the sharp side of the oppression.
For groups who share that stuff like to pretend they are moderates by also sharing more mild mannered stuff, to those uninvolved that seems reasonable, to those who deal with it regularly it's deeply problematic. It's exactly the same shit Britain First used to do, sharing “not racist” media so people couldn't call them racist and heck it's what Tommy Bobinson does now.
Transphobes sharing “not transphobic” stuff to escape from the pile they've posted or said elsewhere is not something we'll give platform or space too.
Lynn
I am 100% I would have seen leaflets however happy to admit I might have missed something, If there were leaflets I'm sure someone posted them online, I've had a look and was unable find some... Please share if you know where they are hosted?
I suspect this was more of a “few things were handed out” rather than a “leafleting”.
They were kicked out for being part of Helen's sit in which the venue decided not to entertain.
Pickman's Model/ Smoked out/ many others
No doubt many people with GC views will come in, respect the space and enjoy the Anarchism. I suspect a few Tankies, Assad lovers, Stalinists etc will come along too. It's the nature of the beast really. Heck sometimes that is a good thing as via osmosis and the odd convo people learn and develop their thinking.
There seems to be this thinking that we're a fucking border agency and going tobe checking peoples politics at the door, we ain't. Don't come in with the intent to cause a ruck or share bigotry and you'll probably be aight. Unless you're well known for doing so... sadly there are plenty of people who can think of nothing better for a Saturday than going to the Anarchist bookfair and being a dick for a variety of reasons.
Re; Stalls and policing Anarchists. We won't be giving a stall to the National Anarchist Movement either for the same reasons as Women's Place won't have a stall. There will however be a wild array of Feminist stuff as the politics of the oppressed are a vital aspect to the revolutionary movement ~(obviously)...
Again, tho we might not provide a platform, nothing at all is stopping GC Anarchists from holding an event of the fringe and sharing their ideas in an event of their own making especially one which “isn't transphobic” or whatnot. We all have free association and the ability to hold assembly, I personally think we should do so with respect and understanding how our actions might harm others (including those with sensory issues, coz fuck folks, hostility in the safer space can fuck off regardless of it's genesis)
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Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
ViolentPanda
Thank you for your addition.
Smocked out
I think there are many women who are GC Anarchists and the ones I know respect the spaces they are in, understand that some GC people are hostile and venomous, disassociate openly and overtly from that discuss their concerns in a positive and comradely way, understanding the emotive nature of the issue and you know generally being right on Anarchists.
They wouldn't for a moment think about storming into a safer space to wave a banner and ruin everyone's day. They've find a suitable venue and talk, discuss and develop our collective thinking. In amongst things like the GRA discussion we are skipping over rather basic anarchistic concerns about how government legislations by the nature can be used to oppress and sow dischord and more philosophical ones about the need for such act at all. There is nuanced discussion needed regarding safer spaces for women who have survived assault and such sure.
Those are vital discussions.
I have them all the time, both as a social media admin and in the flesh down the pub.
These are contextual and defined by the space.
It's the same reasons we don't talk about male suicide figures during a conversation of prejudice women face. It's a vital issue sure but why the fuck derail the conversation like that? We quite rightly out people like that as MRA's and Manarchists and tell them to fuck off. Respect the space innit.
Andysays
re; Pickman's model...
Tho I understand we may disagree of whether Transphobia (with it's sliding scale) is incompatible with Anarchism, but yeah this all of the above are quite reasonable as general policies for managing any of a number of conflicts. The majority of these we already have written in a public manner (ie, expect a barny, be comrades, no abuse) and some in a private manner (discussion on separate space for arguments, arbiters, no opposition to fringe/external events etc)
Tho a “safer space” isn't defined by the lack of opinions one finds objectionable, but rather that it is a space without oppressive politics / hostile attitudes being forced on people. This idea that a “safe space” is for the snowflakes who can't take a barny or get offended etc etc is some 4chan / macho shit we shouldn't repeat here like that was actually what the words meant. Our “safer space” policy isn't to save peoples feelings but to counter very real and direct threats to the personal and communal safety of attendees and stalls.
TBh I might share (next to) as is at the next meeting. Sort of double down on somethings already cooking.
Look, end rant here...
Transphobia kills people.
Whether full TERF or just moderately bigoted, The encouragement of the hostile environment towards trans women in particular, leads to a massive mental health crisis, the normalising of physical assaults and work place prejudic. The tolerance we have for it in British Anarchism is fucking appalling and our comrades world wide really have no clue about why we've allowed people with social capital to poison the well and cause so much dischord.
Transphobia has no space in our movement, it's not to be debated, tolerated or given an ear. Transphobes can fuck right off.
If you think someones space and place in our society is dictated based on whats in their underwear either now or at birth, you are part of the problem.
There are forty year old men giving birth and single moms that had a penis for most of their lives.
Deal with it.
Commentary that “we're authoritarian” because we'll keep out bigots smacks of nazi trash saying the really Fascists are those protesting them. The wilful ignorance of how undermining an entire community with leaflets and words can lead to violence, murder, suicide and institutional prejudice is fucking bullshit and we are all a lot smarter than that.
If you want to be an anarchist prig and say “hey don't ban people yo” then set up your own Anarchist bookfair, invite a bunch of hate filled trash to hold stalls and have blood and honour play the after party.
Respect the Anarchist notion of free association and don't come. See that is what Anarchists who disagree with X or Y policy would do, they'd either set their own shit up or not come.
Heck such an event – even with out hyperbolic stuff – one with Women's Place and co, Trots, Eco-Fash, Stalinists, China No#1 types and Phalangists would no doubt be well attended and a hotbed for discussion and barny.
That's great, sure ok... but that ain't Bookfair2020.
Just accept it and move on with your day x
p.s. It is not for the vunerable and oppressed to educate people on aspects of their oppression. There seems to be a weird attitude to some of this that is pretty much saying that Trans people should have to debate with transphobes over their very existence. psht, like jeez.
This is a transgender friendly space. If you are not transgender friendly, keep your mouth shut or don't come.
Heck It's not like bigots ever change their mind when you debate them anyways no matter how many valid points your present em.
Thank you for your addition.
Smocked out
I think there are many women who are GC Anarchists and the ones I know respect the spaces they are in, understand that some GC people are hostile and venomous, disassociate openly and overtly from that discuss their concerns in a positive and comradely way, understanding the emotive nature of the issue and you know generally being right on Anarchists.
They wouldn't for a moment think about storming into a safer space to wave a banner and ruin everyone's day. They've find a suitable venue and talk, discuss and develop our collective thinking. In amongst things like the GRA discussion we are skipping over rather basic anarchistic concerns about how government legislations by the nature can be used to oppress and sow dischord and more philosophical ones about the need for such act at all. There is nuanced discussion needed regarding safer spaces for women who have survived assault and such sure.
Those are vital discussions.
I have them all the time, both as a social media admin and in the flesh down the pub.
These are contextual and defined by the space.
It's the same reasons we don't talk about male suicide figures during a conversation of prejudice women face. It's a vital issue sure but why the fuck derail the conversation like that? We quite rightly out people like that as MRA's and Manarchists and tell them to fuck off. Respect the space innit.
Andysays
re; Pickman's model...
- Making it clear that all anarchists, including trans comrades, are welcome and valued.
- A clear statement of the principle that the only views that anarchists will be prevented from expressing are those about which there is a very clear consensus amongst anarchists to be incompatible with anarchism.
- A warning to prospective attendees that this will mean people from both sides being exposed to ideas they might not like, and that it's not reasonable for anyone to expect the organisers to prevent that. And an explanation of why i.e. the importance of anarchists bring able to freely exchange views, and enter discussions.
- That name calling, intimidation or abuse won't be tolerated (from either camp).
- An appeal to people to confine discussions to the relevant fora, so this issue doesn't dominate every aspect of the event (that opinions aren't forbidden doesn't mean it's appropriate for them to be aired in any way at any time e.g. shouting across the floor).
- An appeal for discussions to be held in as comradely manner as possible, emphasising that, notwithstanding some significant differences, there's more that anarchists have in common.
- An explanation that failure to engage respectfully is likely to mean the bookfair can't continue.
- A reiteration that the bookfair is for anarchists, and that any disruption that threatens its viability by those whose views are clearly at odds with anarchists will likely result in their ejection.
- That people welcome to leaflet outside the event, but in the interests of circulation and clearing up please no leafleting among the stalls - people welcome to leave free material of all sorts on the tables for this purpose, or to distribute it to interested people from stalls or in meetings.
- That while the bookfair organisers are happy to resolve disputes which fall within the actual organisation of the day, disputes between people or groups which have arisen outside the bookfair should be kept outside the bookfair: while not a safe space (exposure to ideas you might find objectionable for example) it is not a battleground.
- The formation of an arbitration panel (membership to be determined, perhaps a couple of people from national groups) to defuse arguments which arise on the day but aren't related to the administration of the bookfair
Tho I understand we may disagree of whether Transphobia (with it's sliding scale) is incompatible with Anarchism, but yeah this all of the above are quite reasonable as general policies for managing any of a number of conflicts. The majority of these we already have written in a public manner (ie, expect a barny, be comrades, no abuse) and some in a private manner (discussion on separate space for arguments, arbiters, no opposition to fringe/external events etc)
Tho a “safer space” isn't defined by the lack of opinions one finds objectionable, but rather that it is a space without oppressive politics / hostile attitudes being forced on people. This idea that a “safe space” is for the snowflakes who can't take a barny or get offended etc etc is some 4chan / macho shit we shouldn't repeat here like that was actually what the words meant. Our “safer space” policy isn't to save peoples feelings but to counter very real and direct threats to the personal and communal safety of attendees and stalls.
TBh I might share (next to) as is at the next meeting. Sort of double down on somethings already cooking.
Look, end rant here...
Transphobia kills people.
Whether full TERF or just moderately bigoted, The encouragement of the hostile environment towards trans women in particular, leads to a massive mental health crisis, the normalising of physical assaults and work place prejudic. The tolerance we have for it in British Anarchism is fucking appalling and our comrades world wide really have no clue about why we've allowed people with social capital to poison the well and cause so much dischord.
Transphobia has no space in our movement, it's not to be debated, tolerated or given an ear. Transphobes can fuck right off.
If you think someones space and place in our society is dictated based on whats in their underwear either now or at birth, you are part of the problem.
There are forty year old men giving birth and single moms that had a penis for most of their lives.
Deal with it.
Commentary that “we're authoritarian” because we'll keep out bigots smacks of nazi trash saying the really Fascists are those protesting them. The wilful ignorance of how undermining an entire community with leaflets and words can lead to violence, murder, suicide and institutional prejudice is fucking bullshit and we are all a lot smarter than that.
If you want to be an anarchist prig and say “hey don't ban people yo” then set up your own Anarchist bookfair, invite a bunch of hate filled trash to hold stalls and have blood and honour play the after party.
Respect the Anarchist notion of free association and don't come. See that is what Anarchists who disagree with X or Y policy would do, they'd either set their own shit up or not come.
Heck such an event – even with out hyperbolic stuff – one with Women's Place and co, Trots, Eco-Fash, Stalinists, China No#1 types and Phalangists would no doubt be well attended and a hotbed for discussion and barny.
That's great, sure ok... but that ain't Bookfair2020.
Just accept it and move on with your day x
p.s. It is not for the vunerable and oppressed to educate people on aspects of their oppression. There seems to be a weird attitude to some of this that is pretty much saying that Trans people should have to debate with transphobes over their very existence. psht, like jeez.
This is a transgender friendly space. If you are not transgender friendly, keep your mouth shut or don't come.
Heck It's not like bigots ever change their mind when you debate them anyways no matter how many valid points your present em.
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Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Welcome to any further questions about Bookfair Stuff in general but I'm not getting dragged into disengenous tiffs about someones Transphobic beliefs, issues about individuals or the Transphobia policy and I'll either ignore or direct you back here. So if I ignore you and don't reply thats why x
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tbh it'll be good to have it back next year
we're all auld curmudgeons here, there's people on the thread who can never see a nit without picking it - good luck to you!
andysays
Love and solidarity
I think it's worth remembering since they have not had a voice in the debate here that Anarcha feminism and Queer anarchism are both long standing and important parts of the anarchist movement in the uK, even if some of us might have concerns about the slide towards identity politics over class struggle. Both these groups have had an organised presence at pretty much every bookfair I've been to as well as played a siginificant role in anarchist organising in the UK. And both are trans inclusive, in fact that is pretty embedded within Queer politics.
GC feminism has not been part of the anarchist tradition here or anywhere else in the world. Very very few GC feminists are anachists, and a lot of the ones that are are not women, and the broader GC movement is openly hostile to those who identify as Queer. And by hostile I mean claiming queer politics is a paedophile front. The GC movement has also proved to be openly hostile to anarchist feminists who have included trans people within their feminism.
In truth the GC movement on the scale it currently is has only existed for a couple of years and formed to challenge proposals that would have removed the role of the state in dictating legal gender identity. The GC movement believe that either people should not have the right to change their legal gender identity or that they should have to apply to a state panel. The GC movement opposed switching the protected characteristic in the EA to gender identity meaning non binary and gender non conforming people can legally be denied jobs, housing and services. Many in the GC movement want to see more laws over who gets to use which toilet etc, presumably policed by some kind of gender cops. The GC movement believes that an elite intellectual group of feminists have the right to dictate to workers in womens refuges (and sex workers although thats a bit diggression) how they should do their jobs. And many in the GC movement, including moderates, believe that trans inclusion is such a threat, the biggest threat to woman in 100 years according to Womens Place, that it is legitimate to form an allegiance with Tories, capitalists, Evangelicals and even in some cases racists and Fascists against trans rights. None of this strikes me as ver6y anarchist.
And whilst individuals may have their own views, and some anarchists may have more thoughtful GC positions, some I'm sorry to say don't. And as there is currently no formal or informal GC anarchist group then I find it hard to understand why it shoould even be under consideration that groups led by Trots and Tories should have a presence at the bookfair to appease a small number of individuals and against the consensus of the organisers and pretty much every established anarchist group in the UK.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Nobody is arguing that Tories or trots be admitted, or that all GC views are compatible with anarchism. Rather that those anarchists with the "more thoughtful GC positions" aren't excluded. And that's a bigger number than you imply; the consensus you claim is illusory.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I understand that that's your opinion. Other anarchists disagree for perfectly politically sound reasons, and without being transphobes. My only issue is with organisers of an anarchist event insisting that other anarchists fall into line.
But I suspect we'd just go round and round, so I don't expect a reply. And, as I said before, notwithstanding that I don't agree with all the organisers decisions, I'm glad someone's taken it on. I hope it goes well, and I may even attend.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
An opinion flying in the face of facts. And asks the question that what is it that makes someone female/male if it's not biology? Some kind of feeling?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
But people are right, there's much more important things to think and talk about, and I hope the Bookfair will be a chance to do that.
I appreciate the attempts at (mostly) reasonable discussion we're having here, but in the last couple of years I've seen good comrades and friends denounced as Nazis, bullied out of demonstrations and events, told they're the enemy, and threatened and sometimes attacked for not agreeing with 'the trans position' by people in the anarchist movement and wider scene, so I am fucking angry and really disillusioned that it's come to this state of affairs, which is worse by far than anything else I've seen.
Watching a young tall and physically imposing 20 something who looked male scream 'you ugly TERF cunt' into the face of a much older and smaller and visibly scared female at the 2017 Bookfair while being supported by other 'anarchists' was quite possibly the low point of many years of this stuff, so fuck the anarchist movement if that's what it's become.
I appreciate the attempts at (mostly) reasonable discussion we're having here, but in the last couple of years I've seen good comrades and friends denounced as Nazis, bullied out of demonstrations and events, told they're the enemy, and threatened and sometimes attacked for not agreeing with 'the trans position' by people in the anarchist movement and wider scene, so I am fucking angry and really disillusioned that it's come to this state of affairs, which is worse by far than anything else I've seen.
Watching a young tall and physically imposing 20 something who looked male scream 'you ugly TERF cunt' into the face of a much older and smaller and visibly scared female at the 2017 Bookfair while being supported by other 'anarchists' was quite possibly the low point of many years of this stuff, so fuck the anarchist movement if that's what it's become.
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