Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[Lock&Light]

Prayers sent

What!

 

[Pickman's model]

It's how the Libyans have been describing the mercenaries throughout in tweets and in phone calls to media. So it is their, to your mind, perverse use of the term.

if that's the sense in which anudder oik's using it, i'm sure he would have made that very point by now.

 

[teqniq]

@butchersapron

Well TBH I think it's pretty bad idea - I'm hoping they can sort it themselves sooner rather than later.

People have mentioned the 6th fleet NATO etc and technically maybe it's possible to enforce no-fly zone, doubt the will is there to do it though anyway.

 

[Lock&Light]

the sixth fleet should take out the Libyan air-force .........

That alone is enough to tell me that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[elbows]

In regard to these foreign mercenary fears, it was reported today that South Koreans who were working on a building site in Tripoli were attacked. Poor innocents such as them have it doubly bad, look foreign and wearing construction hats. (armed people in yellow construction hats have been seen in at least 2 video clips in recent days).

As for the skin tone issue, Im pretty sure a clip from a day or 2 ago had audio which seemed to suggest people in a hospital were interrogating an injured pro-regime person, they were disagreeing about whether he was really from Tripoli as he claimed, some thoght his skin appeared too dark. Thats what rumour, fear & violence does I guess.

 

[Pickman's model]

That alone is enough to tell me that you don't know what you're talking about.

you never do.

 

[elbows]

1623: In London, oil experts are meeting to discuss the crisis as part of International Petroleum Week. Chris Skrebowski, from Peak Oil Consulting, doesn't think production will be affected in the short term, but warns of worries about supplies long term. "Obviously if it goes on, then it does start to have an impact. But what the market really fears is any suggestion of production being cut back, facilities being occupied."

Oh what timing.

 

[butchersapron]

Just got a fantastic one off dima:

Al Jazeera: Libyan army officers statement urging fellow soldiers to "join the people" and help remove Gaddafi

If AJ put it out she knows why.

 

[quimcunx]

Video of what is identified as a dead african mercenary...

That appears to be the same video of dead mercenary which has been doing the rounds the past couple of days. Which partly makes me wonder if there are as many as are being claimed.

Although there is so (relatively) little footage of anything here so who knows.

 

[Lock&Light]

unfortunately, his guards have huuuge personal loyalty,and are fanatical about the Jamahiriya

The son said yesterday that there would be no problem dropping the Jamahiriya for a second Jamahiriya. Of course no-one should take that offer seriously.

 

[Pickman's model]

@butchersapron

Well TBH I think it's pretty bad idea - I'm hoping they can sort it themselves sooner rather than later.

People have mentioned the 6th fleet NATO etc and technically maybe it's possible to enforce no-fly zone, doubt the will is there to do it though anyway.

let's say for the sake of argument that the us do decide to intervene. what happens when somewhere else flares up, perhaps somewhere the yanks give more of a fuck about like saudi arabia or iran - or even yemen, djibouti, qatar, morocco? do you think they can intervene everywhere? which i think is why they will intervene nowhere.

 

[frogwoman]

exactly - it's extremely unlikely that they'll try to do anything, militarily anyway.

they can't.

 

[Anudder Oik]

if that's the sense in which anudder oik's using it, i'm sure he would have made that very point by now.

The reports are that the bulk of mercenaries are black africans. The airport at Benghazi was reported to have been shut down to stop them being flown in. Elsewhere, there is mention of Chad being an area where rebel forces may owe allegience to Gadaffi. The man in the footage is black african not north african. He could have been someone else who was mistaken for a mercenary but he is wearing military fatigues. From what I understand, in Libia most people are arab. The BBC witness report on air every half hour also mentions white skinned mercenaries, perhaps from eastern europe.

 

[Pickman's model]

i'm pleased we can agree that they are all africans except the possible eastern europeans.

 

[elbows]

Interesting article here on longstanding anti black African racism in Libya, including racism against black Libyans, and how a lot of the reports of "mercenaries" fit into a discourse of "they must be foreign because no Libyan would do this" argument (which is clearly nonesense as Gadaffi has shown he is quite willing to kill his own people) The article makes the point that the internal security forces are enormous in Libya (regular and reserves add up to 100.000 troops)and chosen for their loyalty and that the addition of a few thousand African mercs would make little difference.

Yeah, a fair chunk of the tweets from both Bahrain and Libya have depressed me because they do appear to reveal underlying ugly issues relating to race, or in the case of Bahrain sectarian tensions.

Having said that, Bahrain bringing in many people from a variety of Sunni muslim countries to take up positions within the army and other parts of society, both for Sunni regime security reasons and as part of an attempt to make the Sunnis a majority of the population there eventually seems like an undisputed reality thats been going on for years. People have complained that some in the security forces dont even speak the right language.

 

[Lock&Light]

Smiled reading this...

Can you you take nothing seriously?

Have you considered the families back home in Libya?

 

[teqniq]

let's say for the sake of argument that the us do decide to intervene. what happens when somewhere else flares up, perhaps somewhere the yanks give more of a fuck about like saudi arabia or iran - or even yemen, djibouti, qatar, morocco? do you think they can intervene everywhere? which i think is why they will intervene nowhere.

I ain't gonna disagree. .... in fact I don't think I was anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

I ain't gonna disagree. .... in fact I don't think I was anyway.

that's what i like to hear

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah, a fair chunk of the tweets from both Bahrain and Libya have depressed me because they do appear to reveal underlying ugly issues relating to race, or in the case of Bahrain sectarian tensions.

Having said that, Bahrain bringing in many people from a variety of Sunni muslim countries to take up positions within the army and other parts of society, both for Sunni regime security reasons and as part of an attempt to make the Sunnis a majority of the population there eventually seems like an undisputed reality thats been going on for years. People have complained that some in the security forces dont even speak the right language.

Mubrak tried the same argument the other way - they both appealed to what either is, or they both think, is an existing chauvinism.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

What are the recruitment chains like? If you know?

The only person I know who has worked in North Africa has been a Scottish geologist ex-girlfriend working with a largely Filipino drilling crew. The locals maybe do the catering, or perimeter security. That was Algeria mind, but Libya will be no different. It's a bit like large shipping, western European Captains and other officers, and engineers, and a skilled and, importantly, cheap crew. I think it basically works on word of mouth. There's a guy who when he is up here gets a crew together, working to refurb a power station, and he can get them on speed dial when a new contract turns up. Same thing. Reputation.

 

[butchersapron]

The only person I know who has worked in North Africa has been a Scottish geologist ex-girlfriend working with a largely Filipino drilling crew. The locals maybe do the catering, or perimeter security. That was Algeria mind, but Libya will be no different. It's a bit like large shipping, western European Captains and other officers, and engineers, and a skilled and, importantly, cheap crew. I think it basically works on word of mouth. There's a guy who when he is up here gets a crew together, working to refurb a power station, and he can get them on speed dial when a new contract turns up. Same thing. Reputation.

Cheers. Appreciate the answer.

The old fool is going live in a bit i.e a vided old thing.

 

[cybertect]

It's one of the most interesting things about this: hadn't really thought before about what you do when you still have access to the treasury while the army can't be trusted and protests need to be crushed, but mercenaries are a better solution than asking the secret police to step in, Cairo-style. I'm sure a historian would tell me that it's been done a thousand times before though.

Yep.

Rather famously, Louis XVI put Swiss and German mercenaries on the streets of Paris during the run up to the storming of the Bastille in 1789, while less reliable French guards were confined to their barracks, themselves under guard, which actually provoked the French troops' own rebellion.

 

[elbows]

The only person I know who has worked in North Africa has been a Scottish geologist ex-girlfriend working with a largely Filipino drilling crew. The locals maybe do the catering, or perimeter security. That was Algeria mind, but Libya will be no different. It's a bit like large shipping, western European Captains and other officers, and engineers, and a skilled and, importantly, cheap crew. I think it basically works on word of mouth. There's a guy who when he is up here gets a crew together, working to refurb a power station, and he can get them on speed dial when a new contract turns up. Same thing. Reputation.

The more permanent oil infrastructure, as opposed to new drilling operations, exploration etc, could be a bit different though?

 

[dylans]

i'm pleased we can agree that they are all africans except the possible eastern europeans.

You actually (and inadvertantly in your sarcasm) pick up on a very important point. One made in my last post. That the hysteria over "African mercs" is indicative of an act of self- denial of their own African-ness by Libyans themselves

But Libyans, you do yourself an injustice with these fears directed at “Africans”. You, in more than one sense, are these Africans. You cannot build a society of justice by until you learn this.

 

[elbows]

One last thing regarding the Libyan skin tone issue. If I look at pictures of Gaffadi's previously famous 'all female bodyguards', the range of skin tones is as varied as the bewildering array of different uniforms they seem to have sported over the years.

 

[quimcunx]

The only person I know who has worked in North Africa has been a Scottish geologist ex-girlfriend working with a largely Filipino drilling crew. The locals maybe do the catering, or perimeter security. That was Algeria mind, but Libya will be no different. It's a bit like large shipping, western European Captains and other officers, and engineers, and a skilled and, importantly, cheap crew. I think it basically works on word of mouth. There's a guy who when he is up here gets a crew together, working to refurb a power station, and he can get them on speed dial when a new contract turns up. Same thing. Reputation.

In a similar vein when talking about BP in (Nigeria? some other african country) the claimed 'we bring jobs to the local population' was rubbish. Africans got a small number of low paid jobs and internationals were brought in for any better paid positions.

 

[Anudder Oik]

From the BBC automatic live updates:

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon spoke to Col Gaddafi earlier today. In a statement to the BBC, his office now says Mr Ban is "outraged" at reports of aircraft firing on civilians in Libya. Calling for an immediate end to the violence, the statement adds: "Such attacks against civilians, if confirmed, would constitute a serious violation of international humanitarian law and would be condemned by the secretary-general in the strongest terms."

Typical tosh posted on the BBC. Can't they find anything better? Did Blair and Bush get their ear chewed by the UN when they bombed civilians with jets? Did they fuck. The UN rushed to take down a copy of Picasso's Guernica painting which adorned the hall in their New York headquarters when Collin Powell came to tell them what to do. Maybe Ghaddafi should move on and become a peace envoy in the middle east like Toni Blair.

 

[teqniq]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

JacobPark Jacob Park
Fmr UK FM David Owen on @AJEnglish now: UN sec council should meet tonight, authorize no-fly zone over #Libya | via @brhone

 

[Pickman's model]

anyway time for bed. wouldn't be surprised if i wake up to find he's shuffled off this mortal coil or at least scarpered.

 

[Lock&Light]

Slightly off-topic, but the BBC live coverage of this is spectacularly bad. They have a VT of William Hague musing aloud whether Qadafi is on a plane to Venezuala or not, and so they're playing it on a continuous loop because they don't trust any other sources.

What do expect from a news organisation that wants to stay credible?