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Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

It's worth addressing this again, because it's the biggest canard rolled out by the suckers.

The extraction of natural raw materials does not require "order and stability." Was there "order and stability" in Africa or America when the colonialists arrived? If you mean by "order and stability" a strong central state, then obviously that will be an obstacle to the extraction of natural raw materials.

Why? Because a strong central state will insist on being properly paid for their raw materials, and may even decide it doesn't want to sell them at all. In this region any such state, if representative of the people, would also be dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
I can't be arsed, Phil. I'm on this thread to follow things and participate in analysis of the Libyan events. I'm not interested in your attempts to take things off towards frankly bizarre a-historical analyses. You come across as quite detached from reality.
 
Dwyer is right when he said that this was all laid out in general terms over a decade ago. I'll try to find some stuff for you if you haven't read it.

Post it up if you like, but it won't do any good. This is utterly common knowledge, it is not disputed, it is a part of ordinary political discourse, I just posted a long article about it from the LRB, to no discernible effect.

There comes a point when, if people don't know about something, it's because they don't want to know.
 
Well done! You've IDed the two most prominent people who do have some illusions in the intervention. Now you can get onto picking out what others like me and Dylans are saying here

I picked up briefly on the point about a powerful Iran. Logically, the US (and Israel for that matter) has nothing to fear from Iran. Iran on the other hand has plenty to fear from the US. The promotion of Iran as a danger that needs to be 'dealt with' has to come from reasons other than those stated. The 'hatstand' people are those who advocate action against Iran. Why? Who does Iran threaten? So what if Iran develops nuclear weapons? What are those same people doing to promote reform from within in Iran? Given that it is far from a monolithic dictatorship, there is plenty of scope for reform from within, but they have no interest in any kind of 'intervention' that doesn't involve bombs.
 
Now tell us: why on earth would they want to do that?
Because oil is best extracted in territories ruled by a state which guarantees order and is friendly to the west.

Now, please show me someone else that is coming out with your analysis. I'd like to see evidence that you're not some lone loon on this
 
I really don't know what it will take to convince you. When we go into Iran, will you be saying that it is because of a rigged election, or because Ahmidinajad is a horrid monster?

The West is following a course of action that was publicly recommended by its most influential policy makers over a decade ago. That course of action is entirely commensurate with its interests, and those of Israel. In fact it would be very strange if they weren't doing this, or something very like it.

Let's say they invade Iran ok. That decision will be the result of a well thought out policy decision, perhaps precipitated by real world events in Iran or the region, perhaps by events that are totally fabricated. Whatever, the decision is made. To support some opposition movement or another, or to replace the regime with another, or to create a safe haven here or a no fly zone there, but the logic of what happens once that decision is made is not entirely predictable.

Perhaps the opposition they have courted have their own agenda? Perhaps the resistance they meet is greater than expected. Perhaps an event, say, an atrocity, the bombing of a girls school, creates outrage in the country and across the globe and leads to attacks on US forces across the region. Perhaps a massive successful attack kills a significant number of troops as in Beirut and creates an anti war movement at home.

Perhaps perhaps perhaps. The point is, the INITIAL decision may very well be the result of a well thought out, extremely ideological policy decision (as was the attack on Iraq) but once made, the events follow a logic of their own and those events are often not predicted because the ideological lens of those who make those decisions makes it impossible for them to see such consequences. They can't. They are incapable of understanding the societies they are attacking
 
Iran/Persia hasn't invaded any other country for well over 200 years. It has, however, been fucked over by the US/UK in recent decades, first with the imposition of a brutal dictatorship, second with their support of an invasion from their neighbour. The onus is on those who say that Iran is a threat to show that they are a threat.
 
I can't be arsed, Phil. I'm on this thread to follow things and participate in analysis of the Libyan events. I'm not interested in your attempts to take things off towards frankly bizarre a-historical analyses. You come across as quite detached from reality.

It is you who are detached from reality. All I'm doing is pointing to the evidence before your eyes.

What do we find in the three Muslim countries the West has recently invaded? Anarchy, war and chaos.

Three times out of three, that is the result. A perfect record.

Surely the onus is on you to show that this oft-repeated (and utterly predictable) result was somehow unintended?
 
You have the most common illusion about it, which is that the West wants to build a functioning democracy, or at least a strong central state, in the places it invades.

Now tell us: why on earth would they want to do that?
Ask the former head of Shell:
There has to be proper security, legitimate authority and a legitimate process... by which we will be able to negotiate agreements that would be longstanding for decades. We wouldn't go into that situation unless these conditions were satisfied because we are a long-term business doing long-term projects and we need the framework in which we can make this sort of investment decision.Phil Watts, former head of Shell, November 2003.[1]
http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=2480
 
Let's say they invade Iran ok. That decision will be the result of a well thought out policy decision, perhaps precipitated by real world events in Iran or the region, perhaps by events that are totally fabricated. Whatever, the decision is made. To support some opposition movement or another, or to replace the regime with another, or to create a safe haven here or a no fly zone there, but the logic of what happens once that decision is made is not entirely predictable.

Perhaps the opposition they have courted have their own agenda? Perhaps the resistance they meet is greater than expected. Perhaps an event, say, an atrocity, the bombing of a girls school, creates outrage in the country and across the globe and leads to attacks on US forces across the region. Perhaps a massive successful attack kills a significant number of troops as in Beirut and creates an anti war movement at home.

Perhaps perhaps perhaps. The point is, the INITIAL decision may very well be the result of a well thought out, extremely ideological policy decision (as was the attack on Iraq) but once made, the events follow a logic of their own and those events are often not predicted because the ideological lens of those who make those decisions makes it impossible for them to see such consequences. They can't. They are incapable of understanding the societies they are attacking

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Dylans. I'm offline for a bit, but will get back to you.
 
Post it up if you like, but it won't do any good. This is utterly common knowledge, it is not disputed, it is a part of ordinary political discourse, I just posted a long article about it from the LRB, to no discernible effect.
A very controversial article from the LRB, you scamp.
 
Good post

There's also this on that site, talking about how the chaos in Iraq is making life difficult for foreign business:

Success for UK companies, in terms of scale of contracts and personnel deployed, has come in the private security industry, which is experiencing an unprecedented and possibly unrepeatable boom in Iraq. Ironically, the costs of providing security and insurance cover have drastically curtailed operating margins for companies, such as Amec, which are trying to do business in the country.
Financial Times, 14/04/05

http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=2481
 
So you think phil's assertion that Iran is a US target in order to protect Israel is just paranoia?

I think Iran is a US target because that serves the interests of the US, primarily. In order to justify a massive military machine, you need an enemy. If no enemy exists, you need to create one.
 
I picked up briefly on the point about a powerful Iran. Logically, the US (and Israel for that matter) has nothing to fear from Iran. Iran on the other hand has plenty to fear from the US. The promotion of Iran as a danger that needs to be 'dealt with' has to come from reasons other than those stated. The 'hatstand' people are those who advocate action against Iran. Why? Who does Iran threaten? So what if Iran develops nuclear weapons? What are those same people doing to promote reform from within in Iran? Given that it is far from a monolithic dictatorship, there is plenty of scope for reform from within, but they have no interest in any kind of 'intervention' that doesn't involve bombs.

The nuclear issue is irrelevant. Iran is a potential regional power and the expansion of that regional hegemony directly confronts the regional interests of Saudi Arabia and consequently the US.

At every level, three issues combine. The decline of US power, real or imagined and consequent Saudi insecurity, the increase of Iranian regional power in Iraq in the vacuum created by both the political reality of post invasion Iraq and the planned US withdrawal and the conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran for regional hegemony centred on Bahrain.

Saudi is a Sunni monarchy. Iran is a shia theocracy. Saudi is a pro Western Arab country. Iran is an anti Western Persian country. Saudi supports Sunni dictatorships across the region. Iran supports Shia based oppressed movements across the region. Saudi power guarantees the authority of US interests. Iranian power undermines it. Without understanding this. The struggle for hegemonic power in the region between Saudi Arabia and Iran then you cannot understand the events in the gulf, particularly Bahrain which is the epicentre of this struggle
 
The difference is the kind of interests that are threatened. The propaganda speaks of one kind of interest, but the reality is a very different kind of interest. The propaganda that promotes war is that which suggests we, as in you and I, should be scared of Iran. On that level, it is a calculated lie.
 
What do we find in the three Muslim countries the West has recently invaded? Anarchy, war and chaos.

Three times out of three, that is the result. A perfect record.

Surely the onus is on you to show that this oft-repeated (and utterly predictable) result was somehow unintended?

I would have thought the answer is obvious, the USA and Britain for that matter do not have departments of national rebuilding, they have departments of war (defence). Their planning for war was good but they have a poor history of regime building and, in the cases you allude to, they bit off more than they could chew.

Will Libya be different? well the west are not so committed not having troops on the ground. But if the rebels had been better armed and stood a chance of overthrowing Gaddafi's regime would the situation be any different? I doubt it would.
 
The reason I partially believe the propaganda from the west, is because the western politicians partly believe their own propaganda.
 
Ultimately, that mad cross eyed little fucker Ahmedinejad wants to turn Tel Aviv into glass.

He gives it the large one (like your goodself) but it means very little (again, like yourself).

He has no real interest in destroying Israel, the guff is just good for business.
 
I've been closely following the sieges of Misrata and Zintan

The situation is much quieter than yesterday. Snipers are still in Tripoli street in the city but it seems the coalition bombing yesterday helped to stop tank fire. It seems that the snipers in the city lost contact with central command and do not know what to do. People are out today but they are very cautious. Some of the shops are open.

The baby clinic was fired on by tanks and I have seen a video released by the rebels showing injured babies. The city has been under siege for almost a month now, so no food is coming in. We depend on what we have stored since the start of the uprising.

Part of the hospital came under under fire yesterday. The main problem now, is the lack of medical supplies which are running out quickly because of the number of wounded.

Gaddafi's forces were searching houses and took away many men. Some of the houses only had old men. They were given the Libyan green flag and told to keep them. The soldiers said the men would be arrested if they did not find the flags when they returned.
 
Good article from Lamis Andoni on the Al-Jazeera site

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/2011324111831413805.html

Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, must go. But it is critical that his downfall come at the hands of the Libyan people rather than as a result of Western military intervention in the country.

Western intervention in the country conjures up images of the destruction of Iraq and revives memories of the region's colonial past. Furthermore, it tarnishes the spirit of the revolutions spreading across the Arab world, for these are aimed not only at removing dictators but at establishing free Arab governments. And free Arab governments cannot be imposed through Western interference.

No government is free if at its very inception it depends upon external powers – powers that, in the Libyan case, have their eye on the country's oil wealth and are motivated by geopolitical interests.

It is true that Western military intervention in the country was brought about by Gaddafi's murderous crackdown on his own people. But it is also the result of the Arab world's failure to protect the people of the region from ruthless dictators and self-serving authoritarian rulers.
 
He gives it the large one (like your goodself) but it means very little (again, like yourself).

He has no real interest in destroying Israel, the guff is just good for business.

Right... that's why they're intent on building nuke warheads for their intercontinental missiles.

That's why 5000 centrifuges at Natanz and Qom are spinning away to create enriched uranium.

That's why it's looking to aquire the P2 centrifuge system from North Korea, the same type Pakistan used to construct around 100 warheads.
 
Right... that's why they're intent on building nuke warheads for their intercontinental missiles.

That's why 5000 centrifuges at Natanz and Qom are spinning away to create enriched uranium.

That's why it's looking to aquire the P2 centrifuge system from North Korea, the same type Pakistan used to construct around 100 warheads.

They throw babies out of incubators too
 
Right... that's why they're intent on building nuke warheads for their intercontinental missiles.

That's why 5000 centrifuges at Natanz and Qom are spinning away to create enriched uranium.

That's why it's looking to aquire the P2 centrifuge system from North Korea, the same type Pakistan used to construct around 100 warheads.

Did Isreal create it's nukes to destroy Tehran?
 
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