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Leave-supporting Llanelli left reeling as manufacturing industry moves out due to Brexit

Can you explain why there are any automotive-related manufacturing sites in the UK (12% of UK exports), and, prior to the Brexit vote at least, continued growth in the sector rather than steady migration elsewhere?

Possible reasons, history, a highly skilled local workforce, the uk makes a lot of cars ( 80% of cars made in the uk are exported ) so suppliers can sell a high percentage of their product in the uk which means it makes sense to manufacture here as it reduces transport costs.

Otherwise no idea.
 
I thought the main argument was that EU-UK trade would not be hit because prosecco. Then the intellectual backbone of the operation piped up to say that UK manufacturing would in fact be wiped out, but that it would be fine as people could just retrain in the services industries:

Vote Leave economist admits Brexit would 'mostly eliminate manufacturing'

Guessing that discourse wouldn't go down too well in Llanelli right now...

I suspect Patrick Minford’s view is that the uk needs to accelerate the loss of manufacturing industries which are moving to the east anyway, and replace them with creative industries which he feels we have some sort of natural advantage for. However I’m not sure what the natural advantage is, timezone ( halfway between the east and Asia ? ), English language ( have you spoken in English to anyone educated from Europe recently ?).

The cleverer tories knew that this needed to be an “unexpected surprise” from brexit, because trying to explain to someone from South Wales that they should vote for brexit because “they’d lose their job but their grandson would do amazing things with artificial intelligence” wouldn’t win them the vote.
 
2018 figures will be interestiing seeing as the arse has fallen out of the european diesel market, entirely due to the cheating practices of certain german manufacturers... hence, more likely, the loss of jobs in Llanelli (and not specifically due to brexit).

European car sales are up year on year since 2013, so this isn’t it unless the factory made things specific to diesels.

Possibly electric cars use less bearings, and bearing manufacturers are downsizing ahead of this ?

Alex
 
Can you explain why there are any automotive-related manufacturing sites in the UK (12% of UK exports), and, prior to the Brexit vote at least, continued growth in the sector rather than steady migration elsewhere?

Can you then explain how being outside the EU would be beneficial to this?
The Dundee Michelin tyre plant closure (speculation about which circulated since even before the 2016 vote, incidentally) was put down to cheaper imports into Europe including the E.U. from Asia. So the idea that you have to be in the EU to be in manufacturing is clearly not the whole story here. Nor was it when car related manufacturing closed during the decades we were in the EU.

The wider story here is labour arbitrage. In or out of the E.U. it will continue to be.
 
Your argument as posted was that most cars manufactured in the UK are sold abroad and that this therefore allows them to sell a high percentage of them in the UK.

You’ve misunderstood the difference between automotive and automotive related ( aka suppliers like the one in South Wales we are discussing. )

Alex
 
And without the constraints of european law they will be able to drive down conditions for workers to save money.
That is exactly why the EU and its trade model (production plus distribution) is designed to do. They don't pretend otherwise anymore. Yet you think the EU is opposed to neoliberalism? Mad upside down world.
 
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There is already hardship around in many leave voting areas of Wales, the Midlands, the north and dying coastal towns. It’s kind of why they voted leave in the first place.

yeah - Llanelli is a pretty grim place. spent a few days there moving my brother out of the shittist, slummiest, private rented accomodation i have ever seen.
 
You’ve misunderstood the difference between automotive and automotive related ( aka suppliers like the one in South Wales we are discussing. )

Alex
So your argument as to why there is a car industry in the UK is that cars are made in the UK.
 
The Dundee Michelin tyre plant closure (speculation about which circulated since even before the 2016 vote, incidentally) was put down to cheaper imports into Europe including the E.U. from Asia. So the idea that you have to be in the EU to be in manufacturing is clearly not the whole story here. Nor was it when car related manufacturing closed during the decades we were in the EU.

The wider story here is labour arbitrage. In or out of the E.U. it will continue to be.
As ever there's subtlety and complexity to any individual case. I'm no expert on Dundee but AIUI it shut in the first instance because the plant is out of date. There's then no appetite for renewal of investment because at least in part, as you say, the market is flooded by Asian imports. This is a result of competition combined with the extreme commodity nature of the tyre product, and the Asian product having reached the requisite level of quality, a comparatively recent development. You're also right in that this would almost certainly have happened with or without Brexit.

Manufacture of cars and a lot of component parts is a bit of a different story, for now at least. Firstly, mass manufacturing cars is hard, and there's a set of practical reasons associated with that as to why it continues to happen in fully developed economies rather than the cheapest sites globally. But less directly, it's also hard for new entrants to displace existing manufacturers, so there isn't disruptive competition as there is in Michelin's case. That pretty much means that if you're say, Ford, you're going to make roughly N number of cars come rain or shine and it's a choice as to where you locate to do that.

If you look at the patterns of automotive manufacture globally, it correlates very strongly with trade agreements. Suppose you buy a Fiat 500 in Europe. It's built in Poland in what started life as a Polski Fiat factory in the 1970s. If you buy one in North America, the same car is made in Mexico, which is otherwise a production oddity. The strongest reason for this is the economics of trade arrangements. So it is with most global car models (usually multiple manufacturing sites) where scale and conditions permit. Trump's tariff meddling and subsequent reorganisation is another good case study.

What's the point of all this? Well, whilst we continue to operate under capitalism & regional FTAs of some form, disruption to those trade agreements very likely mean jobs in that disrupted environment are at risk, more than from bog standard globalisation and all the usual threats. I think it would be dismissive & dishonest to say to UK automotive workers, 'hey it was already happening', because in the short to medium term at least, there very likely will be new negative consequences as a direct result.

That's an analysis as initially contained to the circumstances of one sector, rather than a universal property of Brexit, but there are similar examples elsewhere, like what remains of UK aerospace, and probably other STEM sectors.
 
Can you explain why there are any automotive-related manufacturing sites in the UK (12% of UK exports), and, prior to the Brexit vote at least, continued growth in the sector rather than steady migration elsewhere?

Can you then explain how being outside the EU would be beneficial to this?

Do you really want to me to produce figures on capacity and jobs in the UK automotive industry since EU membership? Honestly?
 
You’ve misunderstood the difference between automotive and automotive related ( aka suppliers like the one in South Wales we are discussing. )

Alex

There is a difference, and the latter is larger in terms of jobs, but it is irrelevant to the argument here which about the EU economic model and labour/capital flows which impacts upon both.
 
UK Automotive Employment 1971 - 502,000
UK Automotive Employment 2018- 162,000

At the same time the overall size and capacity of the UK Manufacturing Sector declined by 67%.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00611/SN00611.pdf

Can you understand why deindustrialized areas might not share metropolitan fantasies about the progressive EU being good for their jobs?
Meanwhile, automotive employment in Germany remains high. We should be sceptical of specific claims that brexit is closing factories, but equally, you don't demonstrate causal effect by comparing the situation at EU entry with that at EU exit. Internal factors are far more pertinent, such as the policies of a certain M. Thatcher.
 
capitalism does screw you over but the EU does it safely with lube. :(
tory brexit is bareback roughly without lube:eek:

what little protections the EU offers will go due to being competitive and as for subsidies bye bye Cornwall and everybody body else you're getting nothing.
The UK was already short of curry chefs. Now the Brexit vote has made it worse | Rupa Huq
curry house owners supported leave because the idea we'd bin poles in favor of Bangladeshis.:facepalm: Suprise surprise that hasn't happened.
 
UK Automotive Employment 1971 - 502,000
UK Automotive Employment 2018- 162,000

At the same time the overall size and capacity of the UK Manufacturing Sector declined by 67%.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00611/SN00611.pdf

Can you understand why deindustrialized areas might not share metropolitan fantasies about the progressive EU being good for their jobs?
Fun choice of data points. Charitably assuming you just don't know the history, perhaps have a read of this, with a particular regard to what was happening prior to 1973:

Automotive industry in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Or, regarding today, this: UK Automotive Industry - SMMT

some 186,000 people employed directly in manufacturing and in excess of 856,000 across the wider automotive industry
Or, you know, total global automotive employment trends.

In your haste to build a ruinous narrative and somehow pin it on the EU you've apparently lost sight of the fact that the modern UK automotive industry post-1980s is on average genuinely successful, and whether you intend to or not, you're belittling the people that have made it so. I don't want to second guess what your idea of good employment is within any version of the current system, but I bet it looks a lot more like this stuff than many of the other options on the menu.
 
Internal factors are far more pertinent, such as the policies of a certain M. Thatcher.

Internal factors are pertinent but not in the way you suggest. For example, more coal jobs were lost in the 1950's and 60's than under Thatcher/before EU membership. The key difference was that they were mediated between the government and unions meaning closures were accepted by workers because change was a) by negotiation and agreement and b) there were no compulsory redundancies and redeployment was available into other jobs normally newer more mechanised pits and/or through the offer alternative employment which also encompassed opportunities for women.

The economic policies of Thatcher and the EU tore this jointly understood approach up and breached the agreement that had formulated the rules of the post war settlement. A similar moral economy to this operated in other industries such as automotive, steel, rail and other sectors - also torn up because they were incompatible with EU rules on the movement of capital, state aid and so on.

This is not complex stuff, it really isn't, but seems to be willfully painted out by those seeking to construct a bizarre progressive narrative around the EU and/or those claiming its been good for work.
 
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In your haste to build a ruinous narrative and somehow pin it on the EU you've apparently lost sight of the fact that the modern UK automotive industry post-1980s is on average genuinely successful, and whether you intend to or not, you're belittling the people that have made it so. I don't want to second guess what your idea of good employment is within any version of the current system, but I bet it looks a lot more like this stuff than many of the other options on the menu.

You haven't got a clue have you?

I'm not suggesting that the jobs are not relatively well paid. I am making the point that a) the UK automotive sector has undergone massive decline, around 300,000 jobs, since we joined the EU. More, if you count the wider nexus of jobs of that used to provide parts. This amounted to over 100,000 lost jobs in the West Midlands alone and that b) whether we leave or stay this decline will continue as the industry seeks to lower wages, increase production elsewhere and maximise profit.

For example JLR, which is part of my union Branch, has constantly sought to blame Brexit for lay offs, partial shut downs and for possible closures. There is one problem with this - it's bullshit. JLR is seeking to divert attention from two fundamental facts a) it's built too many cars of the wrong model, despite repeated warnings from the shopfloor that it needed to diversify production and b) its medium and long term capital investment plan is to maximise new plant and manufacture outside of what it terms 'high wage' (meaning unionised) locations. This strategy will continue regardless of whether the UK is in/out.

When JLR whinges about Brexit it means that it wants the UK to remain so that it can freely and quickly import more and more product using its 'just in time' supply chain model, particularly manufactured goods from elsewhere. Assembly jobs will still exist but will taper off as production techniques develop and more can be imported already assembled.

The idea that EU membership 'protects jobs' is laughable. In fact, it's arguable that disruption the model under a 'hard Brexit' would slow down their strategy and retain jobs.
 
British industry would have continued to decline and be relocated to markets with lower wage labour whether or not Brexit happened. Some will use Brexit as an excuse to up sticks and leave even if they were going to anyway. The question is whether Brexit is accelerating/exacerbating this decline or mitigating it/slowing it down. It seems obvious to me that it is far more likely to be former than the latter. Multinational corporations generally like stability, certainty and unfettered access to large foreign markets. Brexit offers the opposite of the first two of those and almost certainly a restriction of the third, so it also seems entirely plausible that it is actually providing them with further incentive to sod off.
 
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