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Latest doubts about 911 commission: Former Vice President calls for "Phase 2"

Are you actually aware of what you're doing here?

Furthermore, for whatever reason, mondale is correct in asking for the 'why' question to be explored. The 'answer' was of course spread by those in power: the terrorists are jealous of our freedom and democracy and wealth.

I just wonder why those in power in the US felt it so necessary to spout this guff, to get the public to believe this guff? And amazingly how the media happily printed this total bullshit and lies.

Blowback. Get this explored. Ask the CIA, they know all about it, they coined the term.

On "why?": If we run with the idea that OBL was primarily culpable rather than, say, some kind of patsy - the most likely reason is in fact to do with getting US bases off Saudi soil, very holy lands in the mind of the CIA protege.

Funnily enough, the removal of Saudi bases is exactly what has happened since 911, now there's a load of bases in Iraq and more forces all over central asia instead. So he probably got what he wanted. But that certainly aint good propaganda for the US administration. It is plausible then that the "they hate our freedom" narrative was just a distraction from this. But it is also plausible that "they hate our freedom" fits the "clash of civilisation" narrative.
2 birds with 1 stone perhaps.

FWIW I think "blowback" is a bit simplistic when you look at how much funding seems to have come Saudis and Pakistanis who are supposed to be US allies. It is thought highly likely that the 28 classified pages in the commission report refer to Saudi funding. Then we could get into the whole weirdness of OBLs brother-in-law meeting with Bushes dad on 911am and the famous "Flight of the Bin Ladens" as 1st prominently detailed in Farenheit 911. These are facts pertinent tothe thread as the commission doesnt explain what the hell was going on. But I dont want people to say Im a loon for digressing too much into fact and unanswered questions.
 
Blowback, both the term and the book itself (by chalmers johnson) is a very good start for anybody wanting to better understand american foreign policy and its consequences.

It is a great start for american people who want to escape the bullshit their government and media spin to them.

So, i take what you say, but it has its merits very much. One of the biggest problems (as shown over the topic of 911) is that is too far a leap for people to accept that their government could have been complicit.

But finding out why 911 happened would be an intermediate stage.
 
One of the biggest problems (as shown over the topic of 911) is that is too far a leap for people to accept that their government could have been complicit.
The biggest 'problem' is the complete lack of credible evidence to support that supposition. Still, on with the YouTube clips....
 
Thing is taffboy, no one, not a single person, has ever taken the 9/11 Commission as being the whole story; indeed, despite blatant ignorace of it, everyone who's replied to you on this thread are sceptics...that the whole story hasn't been told. What we're not are dazzle eyed idiots who think that there was CD or 3rd party explosions happening that caused the collapse of the towers (to which there has been extensive documented debate on how that could happen, and has been tediously re-hashed on here). The planes flew in, blew up, set fire to the buildings and they collapsed. You might not like that explanation, but it's the best one out there.

On to what I thought would be the meat of what you were asking for, and the whole Cheney/Bush tape erasure...since no one knows the contents of the tape, no one can say 'Well clearly they had knowledge' - it's just as likely that they were destroyed because they had Cheney or Bush giving a clear green light to the use of torture (as opposed to the mangled legalisms they deployed later) which would render them liable to court action in the US.

What I do agree with you about, and have been saying for the last 18 months about this, is that Rice, Cheney and Bush are all guiltly of dereliction of duty of the most severe kind, and Bush is gulty of breaking his Inauguration Pledge to protect the union from all enemies (the same can be argued of Blair and his alignment of UK interests with the US). Does this mean there was direct complicity, no it doesn't.

Also, I'd suggest you look at the character of Al_Q before the attacks. After a very successful decade of staging violent coups in Africa, the tide was rolling back against Islamist governments - there are many analysts who believe that 9/11 was in fact a desparate action designed to re-affirm Al-Qs credibility with it's lose collection of cells and followers around the world (and of course, Al-Q themselves are the most famous example of CIA blowback ever)...altho at least now some people have moved beyond the 'US had to have done it all' and have realised that other actors might have actually wanted to be involved in this...I'd also suggest that people start to separate out the actions of individuals vs governments (esp WRT the Saudis and Pakistan) and the internal politics of those countries...

What is obvious is that another investigation is required tho...
 
What I do agree with you about, and have been saying for the last 18 months about this, is that Rice, Cheney and Bush are all guiltly of dereliction of duty of the most severe kind, and Bush is gulty of breaking his Inauguration Pledge to protect the union from all enemies (the same can be argued of Blair and his alignment of UK interests with the US).
And the loons don't even understand that by spouting their ludicrous distracting sci-fi nonsense about holograms and invisible bombs, they're helping those people stay off the hook.

But then most of the loons aren't interested in the actual truth - they only want their exciting fantasy version of event 'proved,' irrespective of the evidence or probability.
 
And the loons don't even understand that by spouting their ludicrous distracting sci-fi nonsense about holograms and invisible bombs, they're helping those people stay off the hook.

But then most of the loons aren't interested in the actual truth - they only want their exciting fantasy version of event 'proved,' irrespective of the evidence or probability.

Now then editor. Let's look at this rationally and closely, with regard to this thread.

Who are these loons, and where have they posted on this thread? What post numbers contain their "ludicrous distracting sci-fi nonsense about holograms and invisible bombs"??

None of that has occurred on this thread, so why mention it?
 
What we're not are dazzle eyed idiots who think that there was CD or 3rd party explosions happening that caused the collapse of the towers

I think taffboy knows this, and furthermore this thread contains none of this rubbish, and contains no-one saying anybody is dazzle-eyed.
 
OK, not being dragged into this again, but TG makes a schoolbiy error about witnesses right at the start, AND mentioned tower explosions being suspicious etc - so the thread DOES contain rubbish.
 
Oh jazzz you never did get round to telling us, what evidence would satisfy you that 911 wasn't an inside job.

As to William Rodgrizuez here's a list of questions that were put to him on a message forum

So, William, I know you're reading this. You have the power to change your ways. Will you take the course of honor or dishonor?

You have no evidence that the U.S. government committed, aided, allowed to happen, or covered up the 9/11 attacks. Will you stop claiming that the U.S. was involved?

You have no evidence that the basement explosions were due to anything but jet fuel. Will you stop claiming that you do?

You falsely claim that there is no evidence of a fireball in the north tower #50 elevator shaft. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that you were the last person to be pulled from the rubble. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that you saved 15, dozens, or hundreds of lives on 9/11. Will you stop making those claims?

You falsely claimed that you dropped your 2004 lawsuit against the United States and that the suit wasn't dismissed by the court. Will you stop making those claims?

You falsely claim that the 9/11 Commission wanted your testimony, and yours alone, behind closed doors. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that the investigators didn't interview first responders who were in the buildings. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that NIST didn't want to hear your story, and you misrepresent what you told them. Will you stop making that claim?

You have no evidence for your claims that the U.S. media are deliberately trying to suppress your story, and that the media wants to criminalize Muslims. Will you stop making those claims?

You falsely claim that the story you tell now is the same as you've told from the start. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that the 34th floor of the north tower was unoccupied, did not have ongoing construction work, and that there is reason to be suspicious of noises on that floor. Will you stop making those claims?

You falsely claim that 21 floors of the north tower collapsed while you were in the building. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that the 9/11 Commission only addressed a few of the Family Steering Committee's questions. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that the president said, ‘We don’t need an investigation. We know who did it.’” Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that it's impossilble for NORAD not to have intercepted the hijacked airliners. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that WTC 7 had only small fires. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that no steel frame building ever fell due to fire. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that the official version states that jet fuel melted the tower columns. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that evidence was deliberately removed from the WTC site to hide it. Will you stop making that claim?

You falsely claim that only FEMA was allowed to investigate the collapses. Will you stop making that claim?


William, why not be a man, take a few minutes from your whirlwind schedule of lying about 9/11, and address these questions?

For a full and detailed list of Williams lies, and how his story has changed over the years, go here
 
Did you miss his repeated posts in this very thread referencing the invisibly planted invisible bombs going off before the planes .

So saying that something caused the explosions is equal to saying there were invisible bombs. Good grief, Im glad you dont work in the legal profession.
 
So saying that something caused the explosions is equal to saying there were invisible bombs. Good grief, Im glad you dont work in the legal profession.
So what else might have caused the (and I quote you directly) "almighty explosion in the basement before the plane hit," Einstein?

Crisp bags being set off? A large whoopee cushion inadvertently rupturing?

Ans what about all these other explosions you've referred to, courtesy of the Grade A fruitloop authored YouTube clip you linked to? Not a living soul saw any huge explosives being dragged in, so what else might have caused all these (claimed) massive explosions before the planes hit?
 
So saying that something caused the explosions is equal to saying there were invisible bombs. Good grief, Im glad you dont work in the legal profession.
Because there is zero, null, zip, any, evidence of explosives. The volume of explosives required to demolish a structure such as the WTC is colossal - well into the 10's of tons and likely to be over 100 tons. A CD requires them to be precisely placed and the surfaces that they are mounted on to be prepared so that they are in close contact, otherwise they are useless. Yet not one witness has been found to say that there was any preparation, anywhere in the building. This is also in a country where a significant part of the population has had military experience.

Absence of evidence where it is clear that there MUST be for the theory to be remotely reasonable is a major stumbling block.
 
Zelikow is a student on the creation of public myths funnily enough. Very apt…

‘While at Harvard he worked with Ernest May and Richard Neustadt on the use, and misuse, of history in policymaking. They observed, as Zelikow noted in his own words, that "contemporary" history is "defined functionally by those critical people and events that go into forming the public's presumptions about its immediate past. The idea of 'public presumption'," he explained, "is akin to William McNeill's notion of 'public myth' but without the negative implication sometimes invoked by the word 'myth.' Such presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community."

‘…In writing about the importance of beliefs about history, Zelikow has called attention to what he has called "'searing' or 'molding' events [that] take on 'transcendent' importance and, therefore, retain their power even as the experiencing generation passes from the scene. In the United States, beliefs about the formation of the nation and the Constitution remain powerful today, as do beliefs about slavery and the Civil War. World War II, Vietnam, and the civil rights struggle are more recent examples." He has noted that "a history’s narrative power is typically linked to how readers relate to the actions of individuals in the history; if readers cannot make a connection to their own lives, then a history may fail to engage them at all."[9]

Zelikow has also written about terrorism and national security, including a set of Harvard case studies on "Policing Northern Ireland." In the November-December 1998 issue of Foreign Affairs, he co-authored an article Catastrophic Terrorism, with Ashton B. Carter, and John M. Deutch, in which they speculated that if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center had succeeded, "the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it. Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed event in American history. It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America’s fundamental sense of security, as did the Soviet atomic bomb test in 1949. Like Pearl Harbor, the event would divide our past and future into a before and after. The United States might respond with draconian measures scaling back civil liberties, allowing wider surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects and use of deadly force. More violence could follow, either future terrorist attacks or U.S. counterattacks. Belatedly, Americans would judge their leaders negligent for not addressing terrorism more urgently."
link

His cosyness to the administration is clear. As has been pointed out, Kissinger was the first choice, he had to resign because of his conflicts of interest. He was an adviser for Unocal.

Commision co-chairman, Thomas Keane, also is connected to the Saudi company Delta Oil, the main man behind which was one of the top sponsors of Al-Quaeda. Also, Delta Oil was Unocal’s partner in the proposed Afghan oil and gas pipelines.



Kyzer Soze. You say we do not know what was on the tapes. We do, because we know what Zubaydah revealed under interrogation. Ok, you will have to take Gerald Posner's word for it, he says CIA agents revealed this to him. He seems credible though. If you want to believe that they simply forgot to tape this particular interrogation, which they went through great trouble to set up, well thats up to you.
Other than that, we know that suspects have been protected, at the behest of foreign agents, by State Department officials (Edmonds). So there is complicity.
 
So what else might have caused the (and I quote you directly) "almighty explosion in the basement before the plane hit," Einstein? Ans what about all these other explosions you've referred to, courtesy of the Grade A fruitloop authored YouTube clip you linked to? Not a living soul saw any huge explosives being dragged in, so what else might have caused all these (claimed) massive explosions before the planes hit?


There are other witnesses to explosions and their effect lower in the building. I'll dig them out if it means that much to you. I was rather hoping you might go out on a limb and respond to the theme of the thread.

I dont know about the mental state of a person who put a complilation up on Youtube. You seem to be confident of your psychic ability though. Care to give us a quick prediction for tonights Arsenal score so I can go and put a tenner on it?

Actually, regardless of ones bias it strikes me as quite reasonable to put a bunch of similar eyewitness accounts into 1 place. In that respect the evidence is neutral of itself, unless of course you think they were staged, which you havent said yet.

What caused the explosions? I dont know. Its not a matter of the most importance to me but I would have thought a full independent investigation would have looked into it.
 
kyzer_soze

"What we're not are dazzle eyed idiots who think that there was CD or 3rd party explosions happening that caused the collapse of the towers (to which there has been extensive documented debate on how that could happen, and has been tediously re-hashed on here). The planes flew in, blew up, set fire to the buildings and they collapsed. You might not like that explanation, but it's the best one out there"
I think CD is very unlikely. I dont know what caused the explosions. editor is still convinced I think there were bombs, visible or otherwise. Never mind that I never said that, he thinks I repeatedly said it nonetheless.

What I said was that there were explosions. I gave a link to eye-witnesses. That is deemed a "fruitloop" link. I dont know why, it's just a bunch of eye-witnesses.

I believe planes flew in. I've looked at hologram / CGI speculation and find it very unconvincing and thus unhelpful. Some people say the more far out claims are instigated by CO INTEL PRO operations.

I think the building collapse is most likely explained by the "fair assumption" according to the latest Cambridge research of progressive top-down collapse.

It's not a matter of "the explanation I'd like" but what I find to be most plausible, or least implausible at any rate. Note though the degree to which some will take "fair assumption" to mean "cast iron proof".

Im glad you think further formal investigations are neccessary. So do I. Others on the thread have preferred not to comment, which is a likkle sad.
 
There are other witnesses to explosions and their effect lower in the building. I'll dig them out if it means that much to you. I was rather hoping you might go out on a limb and respond to the theme of the thread.

I dont know about the mental state of a person who put a complilation up on Youtube. You seem to be confident of your psychic ability though. Care to give us a quick prediction for tonights Arsenal score so I can go and put a tenner on it?

Actually, regardless of ones bias it strikes me as quite reasonable to put a bunch of similar eyewitness accounts into 1 place. In that respect the evidence is neutral of itself, unless of course you think they were staged, which you havent said yet.

What caused the explosions? I dont know. Its not a matter of the most importance to me but I would have thought a full independent investigation would have looked into it.
There were witnesses to, and victims of, the fireballs caused by the burning fuel. It was mentioned in the Naudet brothers film that they deliberately cut the footage showing the burnt bodies. Some of the reported explosions were undoubtably from that. Many people will also refer to explosions when in reality they simply heard loud bangs. If there were bombs, what reason would there be for placing them? They would clearly be too small to cause a demolition, because there's no evidence to support the widespread devices that would have been required for that.
 
I dont know about the mental state of a person who put a complilation up on Youtube.
Nothing 'psychic' about it - just look at the 73 - yes, 73 - conspiracy-tastic videos he's got on his YouTube page, each one making wild, emphatic claims about "controlled demolition flashes," "evidence of WTC Basmenet Explosions," "Pyroclastic Surge of the WTC Collapse" and even a laughable old chestnut about thermite.

You'd have to be some kind of gullible fool to think that those dodgy-as-fuck, selectively edited videos authored by conspiraloons with an obsessive agenda count as even remotely credible evidence.
 
Nothing 'psychic' about it - just look at the 73 - yes, 73 - conspiracy-tastic videos he's got on his YouTube page, each one making wild, emphatic claims about "controlled demolition flashes," "evidence of WTC Basmenet Explosions," "Pyroclastic Surge of the WTC Collapse" and even a laughable old chestnut about thermite.

You'd have to be some kind of gullible fool to think that those dodgy-as-fuck, selectively edited videos authored by conspiraloons with an obsessive agenda count as even remotely credible evidence.

Fair enough if he's biased as bejesus and got a squillion and one theories - perhaps he's a loon, perhaps he just thinks he's onto more than he is actually onto. In either case, unless you are pupporting that those eyewitnesses are staged or liars I dont think it effects the credibility of that paticular compliation of evidence.

Now, you can say I am obsessed by this or that "loon" theory but I have categorically stated more than once that I find top down progressive collapse to be the most likely cause of the demise of the twin towers.

It is actually you that is obsessing on the issue and consistently avoiding the theme of the thread.
 
In either case, unless you are pupporting that those eyewitnesses are staged or liars I dont think it effects the credibility of that paticular compliation of evidence.
Of course it does, you fool! Videos clips can be easily swapped around, cut up, selectively edited and made to totally misrepresent what the person was actually saying, so it's vital to know the aims, background, impartiality and credibility of the person assembling the videos.

So tell me what you know about this person who put these videos together. What's his background and journalistic training? Has he checked the sources himself? has he conducted interviews himself or has he just scooped potentially inaccurate and misleading videos off YouTube, willy nilly?
 
Of course it does, you fool! Videos clips can be easily swapped around, cut up, selectively edited and made to totally misrepresent what the person was actually saying, so it's vital to know the aims, background, impartiality and credibility of the person assembling the videos.

So tell me what you know about this person who put these videos together. What's his background and journalistic training? Has he checked the sources himself? has he conducted interviews himself or has he just scooped potentially inaccurate and misleading videos off YouTube, willy nilly?

Below is a response, but I observe you are still continuing your obsession with this relative blind alley (as compared to the supposedly central theme of the thread which you have yet to address)

Ive seen most of those clips elsewhere, I remember some of them from the day itself. Many are clearly from major news channels and would be quite easy to verify if anyone can be bothered. I dont know if you are suggesting they are staged clips or liars. I dont think there would need to be such staging as there are plenty of genuine cases of such testimony.

I dont know if the guy has some big wow PHD or journo postgrad and I dont know if it would make him / her more amazingly qualified anyhow. What matters is the authenticity of the testimony which I have no special reason to question, you dont seem to have mentioned any such reasons on your part thus far.
 
Many are clearly from major news channels and would be quite easy to verify if anyone can be bothered. I dont know if you are suggesting they are staged clips or liars. I dont think there would need to be such staging as there are plenty of genuine cases of such testimony.
*gives up
 
That the government acted to cover up how inept they were is far more believeable than some super-secret conspiracy to initate the acts.

It requires investigation. As I keep saying, we need to determine if it was standard issue government cock-up, criminal ineptitude or LIHOP.

There were a large number of warnings, including warnings given to individuals not to fly on the day which seem to indicate foreknowledge on the part of some people.

The issue of funding has never been satisfactorily resolved and might well implicate people shockingly close to the administration and The Bush family.

The organisation blamed for the attacks was itself partly the creation of the CIA and presumably heavily infiltrated.

I would have hoped this thread would amount to more than just a general re-hash of well trodden ground, especially bombs-nobombs and I am sorry I took the bait 3 posts in and that the thread has since been side tracked.

On this thread I am primarily interested in peoples thoughts on the competence of the commission to do an independent job and whether further formal investigations are required. I think it is demonstrable that the commission failed to dealt with the full scope of issues neccessary. It is reasonable to think that this failure might be due to a Whitehouse insider deciding what was looked into and what wasnt.

I expect there will always be a need to discuss broader 911 conjecture, official and otherwise as it is a supremely important topic but this neednt be that thread.

Thanks for the post re. fireballs etc btw
 
That's a shame. I thought you might have had something to say regarding the thread theme in the many posts you've contributed. But I dont think you got round to it in the end. Ho hum.
Sorry, but I can't be arsed with people who pretend to be dispassionately seeking the truth, yet are quick to reference invisible bomb yarns, linking to the usual fuckwit fruitloop YouTube videos as 'proof.'

If you want a serious debate, try picking your sources more carefully.
 
Sorry, but I can't be arsed with people who pretend to be dispassionately seeking the truth, yet are quick to reference invisible bomb yarns, linking to the usual fuckwit fruitloop YouTube videos as 'proof.'

If you want a serious debate, try picking your sources more carefully.

1) I am not referencing "bomb yarns" - I was referencing witness accounts of "explosions" in response to a sarcastic post about "mini nukes" (a bomb yarn on steroids and a straw man in this case)

2) I wasnt citing the link as "proof" of anything, still less "bomb yarns". I was citing the witness accounts of "explosions" as evidence of "explosions". You have not said yet if you think those accounts are faked.

I am seeking the truth, I cant pretend to be dispassionate about it though because I am suspicious about quite a lot of things (warnings, fundings, anything to do with the CIA and not least a seemingly rigged commission)

One piece of conjecture Im not attatched to is the idea that the twin towers were rigged for demolition. you can keep making up that I am, it's "your" board as far as Im aware so you may do as you please but I kind of wish you wouldnt attribute positions to me that I have not taken.

More disappointing though is that you are one of the most prolific contributers to the thread and have yet not managed (as far as I recall) to comment on the title or the OP.
 
2) I wasnt citing the link as "proof" of anything, still less "bomb yarns". I was citing the witness accounts of "explosions" as evidence of "explosions". You have not said yet if you think those accounts are faked.
For absolutely the last time. Unless you bother to research who made that video, what their sources were and if they have any credibility as an independent, impartial documentary maker, then it deserves to be taken as seriously as an episode of Bill and Ben.

Any idiot with a TV package on their PC can selectively quote interviews and edit film footage and statements to presented a grotesquely twisted version of what actually happened.

In fact it 's what the conspiraloon movement is famous for, and sadly there's no end of gullible fools ready to swallow such wildly dubious material without question.
 
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