Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
So I see
bimble
floofy
Just want to say thank you for this post. The word brave always sounds stupid and condescending but the thought process that you went through to get to this realisation, i don't know if you realise how rare and courageous it was. I think it's the gardening, makes people wise.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
On all the threads to be honest
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Have you any idea how cuntish you sound? Seriously.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Big difference between individual political thinkers and organisers, whose political philosophies changed and developed over time, and a mass membership party like Labour. Bakunin's early pan-Slavism was very much at odds with his later anarchism, for example. But he was one individual. You can look at his written work and see how it changed. It can't really be argued with.
The Labour Party is made up of hundreds of thousands of individuals. I can't prove this, but I suspect that the numbers of LP members who adhere to a philosophy which is explicitly racist is vanishingly small. The impact of the Nazis in WW2 had such a profound impact on the left that there is no room for overt, public racism. There will be individuals with dangerous ideas, but not much more than that. I know quite a lot of my local Labour Party and I know that any expression of racism at LP meetings would get shouted down.
And yet. At the last election and before, the main topic of conversation among right wingers around here was how the LP had become institutionally racist and anti Semitic. Never mind that they couldn't find any LP members locally to level the accusation at. The very fact that so many on the right of the party and so many outside the party were making the claim was good enough for them. Those who questioned whether this was true were 'defending the indefensible'.
Nothing much has changed, except that the civil war within the party appears to be getting worse. And people on both sides of the argument seem to be getting on with each other rather less well than before.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
What a fucking horror of a thread. danny la rouge nails it with post 4561, so there should not be much more to say, sadly it still does not seem to have penetrated to some people
With such a total lack of understanding of antisemitism on the left it's no wonder you haven't noticed any.
bimble
floofy
Individuals with dangerous ideas lol. Kevbad the Bad Can you give one example to help explain what sort of ideas you mean?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Loads of people say 'Yeah but I've been a member of X for 20 million years and never seen any racism' - there's lots of stuff you wouldn't necessarily pick up on if you're not the member of a minority. Whether or not you've seen it is not proof of anything. When it was going on all these fucking guys were coming out with 'Yeah but I've been a member of Labour for 50 years and I've never seen any antisemitism' nobody cares, so what? So it doesn't exist?
I don't think some people even considered the effect all this had on Jewish people at the time. I'm not even a labour member and it had a catastrophic effect on my mental health from mid 2018 to 2019, I fell out with people I'd previously thought were all right and lost masses of respect for others. And yes I did get antisemitic abuse from Corbyn supporters. I'm not the only one. If you're still seeing it in terms of a labour civil war think about how Jewish people outside the party will view all this for one second.
I wanted to pick up on this because it's kind of important. It was very clear to me before and after the election that a lot of people basically saw the whole thing in terms of 'the Labour civil war' and factionalism, and its remedy in terms of fixing the damage to the labour party. 'Oh why can't we all get on as before.' and yes, this also applies to parts of the labour right who made a huge show of opposing antisemitism in order to 'save the party' ie get it electable and take back control from corbyns faction again. Like is that really people's main priority when looking at this?
I don't think some people even considered the effect all this had on Jewish people at the time. I'm not even a labour member and it had a catastrophic effect on my mental health from mid 2018 to 2019, I fell out with people I'd previously thought were all right and lost masses of respect for others. And yes I did get antisemitic abuse from Corbyn supporters. I'm not the only one. If you're still seeing it in terms of a labour civil war think about how Jewish people outside the party will view all this for one second.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I dunno, how about the idea to paint a mural of a group of evil illuminati looking guys with hooked noses playing monopoly while everyone dies around them and the idea that it's good and a reasonable thing to draw a picture of. 'Seems legit.'
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Whilst true, I genuinely think the thread has represented a learning curve for some posters.
Not afraid to say that hearing from those most affected by antisemitism on the left has helped me appreciate the issue with a little more clarity.
It doesn't escape my notice that you were absent from these boards for much of that period - that in itself should give us pause for thought.
To be clear, because there were examples of anti Semitism on the left generally, and in the Labour Party, are we not allowed to point out that the extent and degree of anti Semitism was hugely exaggerated for political and factional reasons, in case this should upset some people?
Is that where we're at?
Is that where we're at?
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
two long-term jewish posters - friends of ours with decades of shared history - have posted on this page in that they have not felt welcome in left wing circles over the past few years because of this debate.
I've no idea who you are, and I think as a community, those of us with an actual stake in it need to prioritise their views over some no-mark blowhards who want to repeat the same tired bullshit that's wrecked the Labour Party over the last five years. So, yeah. Shut the fuck up.
I suppose you could say that yes, some Jewish people. But then it's possible it could also upset non Jewish people as well.
But what of left wing non Zionist Jewish people who support Corbyn and who have been subjected to simply awful accusations of being self hating and far worse. Are their feelings to be disregarded? Is their some kind of hierarchy of whose feelings and sensitivities are to take precedence?
Or should we not just go after the truth and leave it at that?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Agreed.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Ok. Bad phrasing. What I meant was that the Labour Party is a mass membership party with no screening process over people's views. In that context individuals can join up with racist, sexist, climate-Change-denying views and nothing much would stop them. If they never went to meetings or got involved in campaigning you would never know they were there. On the whole, if they were to express these views openly in meetings, they would be challenged, at the least.
But Maureen Lipman felt unwelcome in left wing circles when Ed Milliband was the leader of the Labour Party, and said so at the time.
And her feelings are every bit as important as any one who posts on here.
So maybe the problem pre dates Corbyn.
And no, I will not shut the fuck up.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
The truth is Corbyn is antisemitic. Not “gas them” antisemitic but “Ooh, cool mural” antisemitic.
Which also answers Kevbad the Bad ’s question of how people can hide in constituency meetings. They aren’t saying “gas them”, they’re saying “cool mural”.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
You're missing the point rummo of course there's been an attack from the right, but seriously, what do you expect? This is capitalism and that's what it does, and anything perceived to be the least threat to 'business as usual' will be met with maximum hostility... and that includes the mild-mannered slightly left capitalist Corbynism. But it really hasn't helped that there's this whopping big smoking gun of "anti-Zionists" and assorted red-brown dickheads who can't stop themselves from endlessly banging on about the Jews... ahem... sorry, the Zionists. If you don't know this, then just for one minute you need to bin off your rose tinted goggles sharpish. Sure, it's exaggerated, sure the right have made political capital out of it, but so fucking what. Sort yourself out.
"But the Tories and the far right are the real racists!" Of course they are. But we expect it from them twats. If you're on the left, there's no fucking excuse for dogwhistle racism and anti semitism. And the fact that the left really should know better kind of makes it worse.
"But the Tories and the far right are the real racists!" Of course they are. But we expect it from them twats. If you're on the left, there's no fucking excuse for dogwhistle racism and anti semitism. And the fact that the left really should know better kind of makes it worse.
Is it not strange then that there are so many people who have known in for decades, and who would be alert to such a thing, say otherwise, Michael Rosen, Miriam Margolyes, John Bercow, Geoffrey Alderman etc?
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