Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[cantsin]

Agree. imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts. And that's where Corb's statement could be said to be right, about the overblown media attention hurting jews. It’s just not what he meant.

can't speak for anyone else much, but amongst our local CLP left, the resentment is aimed squarely at Starmer and David Evans at present (we've been banned by SW regional from even discussing their conduct at our only CLP meet for 9 months, this thurs - so resentment is at an all time high ) , and on a longer term basis, at the PLP trash who weaponised ( existing / real) AS from the off, mainly for their own, anti Corbyn ends.

Don't know where you get the ' loads and loads ' having ' a problem with jews' idea from, but do you mean from real life experience / real people, or the distorted , amplified, degraded version of everything that exists on social media ?

( On the other hand, I cldn't ever pretend that having the likes of vile bully Ian Austin, sex pest Jon Woodcock, or the laughable c*nt John Mann very noisily fighting my / or my peeps corner, purely for their own benefit ( and hats off, did that ever work out nicely : 3 peerages for 3 of the sleaziest also ran / non ents in the HoC ) sounds like a particularly edifying idea tbh.)

 

[Knotted]

I’m sorry for my crimes, but they do have to be seen in the context of some really bad crimes some big boys over there did.

I remember Ian Brady trying to contextualise the extent of his crimes by pointing at the war in Iraq...

 

[killer b]

It's fine bimble - turns out it's all been blown out of proportion by social media. In real life it isn't like that at all. Must be a relief for you to receive this welcome news.

 

[cantsin]

Regardless what the exact thing that has triggered the meeting/ motion / whatever, it dissolves into whataboutery, outright denialism & veiled antisemitism, just like these threads. That's the problem I'm talking about, the trigger to that happening is pretty irrelevant.

" it " being some archetypal stereotype of a CLP meeting that has developed in the 4 weeks since EHRC report, and that you have had lots of personal experience of in that time ?

 

[killer b]

" it " being some archetypal stereotype of a CLP meeting that has developed in the 4 weeks since EHRC report, and that you have had lots of personal experience of in that time ?

'it' being 'any discussion of antisemitism in the labour party'

 

[frogwoman]

Tbf 'the weaponisation of' doesn't really have an impact on my life tbh. I've not had to put up with it in jobs and that. I couldn't really care less, even if there was no 'weaponisation' it's not like the thing it's allegedly weaponising is going to magically get taken seriously.

For there to be weaponisation there needs to be something to weaponise.

I think I'm done for today tbh

 

[cantsin]

It's fine bimble - turns out it's all been blown out of proportion by social media. In real life it isn't like that at all. Must be a relief for you to receive this welcome news.

if you look at Bimbles post, it starts with IMO, not IME, and so I felt justified in asking the question - but am sure she's happy to have the white knight gatekeeper on hand to shield her, full of the energy that the recent convert brings.

 

[killer b]

The only thing I'm a recent convert to is Jeremy Corbyn being an actual racist - everything else I've been arguing consistently for 5 years at least. White Knight though, nice.

TBF I'm at least partly motivated to stick at it today by wanting to show solidarity with bimble and frogwoman. Their points and experiences are being ignored, explained away and talked past in a way which is pretty gross.

 

[two sheds]

I’m sorry for my crimes, but they do have to be seen in the context of some really bad crimes some big boys over there did.

How do we prevent these crimes, including my own? No I only want to focus on your crimes

And yes there's a thread on antisemitism on the left and as you say the revolutionary left doesn’t have as many members or as much reach. But that doesn't work either because there's no even larger thread on antisemitism in the tory party - which has much much more power than Labour.

The hatred for Labour and Corbyn seems to have spilled over and distorted this thread which seems to have become much more about kicking Corbyn. A thread about antisemitism generally - including that in the Labour party - would be much more constructive and actually might achieve something. I'm not saying ignore it, but it needs to be put in context.

 

[Shechemite]

whats the story there do you know? (he's locked his account straight after posting that sincere apology.

think some very online bloke said some stupid things about another very online bloke who unfortunately for the first VOLB happened to be a QC

 

[bimble]

Oh i missed the cantsin post will reply but out now in wellies

 

[frogwoman]

Never mind

 

[cantsin]

Oh i missed the cantsin post will reply but out now in wellies

no hurry, nothing new (and anything involving wellies almost bound to be a more interesting / wholesome way of spending afternoon.)

 

[two sheds]

Tbf 'the weaponisation of' doesn't really have an impact on my life tbh. I've not had to put up with it in jobs and that. I couldn't really care less, even if there was no 'weaponisation' it's not like the thing it's allegedly weaponising is going to magically get taken seriously.

For there to be weaponisation there needs to be something to weaponise.

I think I'm done for today tbh

But spreading it all over the papers for months on end was part of the weaponisation.

Sorry that I've not helped in all of this, Froggy.

 

[danny la rouge]

How do we prevent these crimes, including my own? No I only want to focus on your crimes

And yes there's a thread on antisemitism on the left and as you say the revolutionary left doesn’t have as many members or as much reach. But that doesn't work either because there's no even larger thread on antisemitism in the tory party - which has much much more power than Labour.

The hatred for Labour and Corbyn seems to have spilled over and distorted this thread which seems to have become much more about kicking Corbyn. A thread about antisemitism generally - including that in the Labour party - would be much more constructive and actually might achieve something. I'm not saying ignore it, but it needs to be put in context.

p156.

 

[frogwoman]

But spreading it all over the papers for months on end was part of the weaponisation.

Sorry that I've not helped in all of this, Froggy.

Yeah no offence but you need to stop.

 

[two sheds]

ok I'll put thread on ignore. It's become a car crash anyway.

 

[killer b]

ok I'll put thread on ignore. It's become a car crash anyway.

You fucking crashed it ffs

 

[Treacle Toes]

The Board of Deputies are conservative and reactionary. This isn’t controversial. They apply double standards. Also not controversial.

The 'contraversary' is the BoD have publically demanded that their 12 point pledges are adopted by the LP and alongside that are continuously making public demands that x, y & Z member/MP are investigated and disciplined. So whilst many are aware that the BoD do not speak for/represent all Jewish people, they are the ones the LP leadership are openly responding to and 'working' with despite their 'conservative and reactionary' perspective. Meanwhile tweets and cosy photoshoots with Tory MPs/leadership, no comment given about the celebration of a known anti-semite Astor etc.. So the double standards being applied are relevant and it isn't whataboutery to notice that and comment on it IMO. The damage it is doing is clear. In the context of the wider societal discussion clearly some people no longer believe the main aim is to stop anti-semitism in all it's forms because of those double standards. The fact the JC keeps getting sued for slander pieces and losing is another example. If the standards are not being applied evenly people will rightly ask why not? The focus is diverted from actual cases of anti-semitism and becomes one about power, who's perspective is being valued, who's interests are being served. Why and how.

 

[campanula]

Agree. imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts.

I think so, Bimble. Apols for this being my sole contribution to this thread because I am woefully confused. And extra apologies, but yeah, I have, I think, had some definite anti-semitic thoughts of exactly that nature. Along with allowing myself to be snared by some fucking personality shit which seems to stand in for actual ideology (in political life). I think I am getting a handle on it a bit more - and think this is possibly a good thing compared to my generally oblivious attitude, prior to the recent foregrounding of this issue.
Going back to avoiding contentious threads I know nothing about but...solidarity.

orgs such as BoD, along with various other 'community elders (religion)' and 'pillars of society' (business) always piss me off, tbh. Typical top-down, authoritarian rubbish where establishment twats get a hard-on acting as the authentic voice of entire classes of hugely heterogenous people. (The exact same wankers who ran my (previous) allotment soc.)

 

[killer b]

I think so, Bimble. Apols for this being my sole contribution to this thread because I am woefully confused. And extra apologies, but yeah, I have, I think, had some definite anti-semitic thoughts of exactly that nature. Along with allowing myself to be snared by some fucking personality shit which seems to stand in for actual ideology (in political life). I think I am getting a handle on it a bit more (and think this is possibly a good thing compared to my generally oblivious attitude, prior to the recent foregrounding of this issue.
Going back to avoiding contentious threads I know nothing about but...solidarity.

you should stick around, we could do with a bit more of this kind of self reflection

 

[danny la rouge]

Agree. imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts.

For example, the views i

Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

I do. ah - the nec are his team, i see.

www.urban75.net

And which does seem to be an undertone throughout this, funnily enough right from the start. I’m exhausted by it; I hate to think how I’d feel if I was Jewish.

 

[danny la rouge]

I think so, Bimble. Apols for this being my sole contribution to this thread because I am woefully confused. And extra apologies, but yeah, I have, I think, had some definite anti-semitic thoughts of exactly that nature. Along with allowing myself to be snared by some fucking personality shit which seems to stand in for actual ideology (in political life). I think I am getting a handle on it a bit more (and think this is possibly a good thing compared to my generally oblivious attitude, prior to the recent foregrounding of this issue.
Going back to avoiding contentious threads I know nothing about but...solidarity.

KillerB is right. Don’t go.

 

[danny la rouge]

who's perspective is being valued, who's interests are being served. Why and how.

And what do you think the answers to your rhetorical questions are?

 

[danny la rouge]

Christ. Another day of my life frittered away on a thread about a party I left in the early 80s.

 

[killer b]

For example, the views i

Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

I do. ah - the nec are his team, i see.

www.urban75.net

And which does seem to be an undertone throughout this, funnily enough right from the start. I’m exhausted by it; I hate to think how I’d feel if I was Jewish.

yeah, I was having a look back at the early posts in this thread earlier and I was talking about this defensive flex from people with no previous in 2016. I was also being called 'jess phillips' for being critical of Ken Livingston

 

[frogwoman]

The weaponisation discourse just reminds me of 'false accusations ruining men's lives!' a lot of the time tbh

of course it happens. People make shit up about anything of course they do. but an awful lot of people are more upset about 'the weaponisation of antisemitism' than antisemitism itself.

I'd add btw that it was definitely a newsworthy story, the fact it was in the media isn't 'weaponisation' any more than the countless examples of tory antisemitism reported in the media (including by the JC and similar)

 

[bimble]

The weaponisation discourse just reminds me of 'false accusations ruining men's lives!' a lot of the time tbh

of course it happens. People make shit up about anything of course they do. but an awful lot of people are more upset about 'the weaponisation of antisemitism' than antisemitism itself.

I'd add btw that it was definitely a newsworthy story, the fact it was in the media isn't 'weaponisation' any more than the countless examples of tory antisemitism reported in the media (including by the JC and similar)

That's a really good analogy.
The newspapers thing yes but at the same time when for months and months you had to see the bloody daily mail front page pretending to care a lot about antisemitism that was just all sorts of crap rolled into one.

 

[Serge Forward]

You're happy with the double standards then?

Where's the double standards? You'll not find many anarchists and communists denying Marx or Bakunin at various points came out with anti-semitic stuff. There's no whataboutery there. However, plenty of Corbyites, etc are still in denial about anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Wait... I suppose that is a double standard then.

 

[Knotted]

Wow you just whatabouted the whataboutery! I think you've just won the thread.