Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[danny la rouge]

...

You’re extracting the wrong meaning from that.

I’ll try again: I don’t worship the person of Marx, Bakunin, or anyone else. I don’t follow heroes, only good ideas. Marx and Bakunin had many personal failings. I do not now nor have I ever intended to excuse those.

Are there antisemitic extra parliamentary communists? Yes. When I said “the left” had an antisemitism problem, I meant that in the much wider sense, regardless of whether I’d recognise them as fellow travellers. This shouldn’t be a surprise, I’ve said it many many times over the years.

 

[two sheds]

I'm a member of the Labour Party.

lol

Fucking hell then - even worse.

 

[danny la rouge]

lol

Fucking hell then - even worse.

What?

 

[bimble]

Normal service has resumed I see.
Can I say that my next door neighbour is a bit of a dick without also at the same time condemning the equally dickheady people I met once who live in a town nearby? Double standards!

 

[bimble]

lol

Fucking hell then - even worse.

Why is it worse? Letting the side down is he?

 

[two sheds]

You’re extracting the wrong meaning from that.

I’ll try again: I don’t worship the person of Marx, Bakunin, or anyone else. I don’t follow heroes, only good ideas. Marx and Bakunin had many personal failings. I do not now nor have I ever intended to excuse those.

Are there antisemitic extra parliamentary communists? Yes. When I said “the left” had an antisemitism problem, I meant that in the much wider sense, regardless of whether I’d recognise them as fellow travellers. This shouldn’t be a surprise, I’ve said it many many times over the years.

Yes no problem with that. Corbyn and labour left aren't allowed those nuances though. One statement with words clumsily chosen and you're labelled permanently.

Your statement was: "But if you are asking “was Bakunin antisemitic?”, then the answer is of course that he did say antisemitic things. ... Did these attitudes remain with him? Well, they are contradicted in other examples of his writing."

Replace Bakunin with Corbyn and you'd be labelled as an apologist. But like I say - I'm not actually accusing you of anything. I wanted to make the point that focusing on Corbyn and Labour is not holding everyone else to the same standards, and I've made it the point. I'll bow out now too.

 

[two sheds]

What?

Bit of a joke really, he's in a party with Starmer as leader while I resigned last week

 

[killer b]

A loss they'll be reeling from for some time to come.

 

[two sheds]

A loss we'll be reeling from for some time to come.

cfu

 

[killer b]

Pretty annoying tbh. Couldn't you lot have fucked off a few years ago? We might have a Labour government now.

 

[two sheds]

Normal service has resumed I see.
Can I say that my next door neighbour is a bit of a dick without also at the same time condemning the equally dickheady people I met once who live in a town nearby? Double standards!

To an extent, but if people keep saying what a dick their next door neighbour is and I say 'ah yes but what about those people who are just as dickheady' it's not a good response to say 'no we're talking about this dick we shouldn't talk about those dickheady people',

 

[two sheds]

Pretty annoying tbh. Couldn't you lot have fucked off a few years ago? We might have a Labour government now.

Starmer for PM

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes no problem with that. Corbyn and labour left aren't allowed those nuances though. One statement with words clumsily chosen and you're labelled permanently.

Your statement was: "But if you are asking “was Bakunin antisemitic?”, then the answer is of course that he did say antisemitic things. ... Did these attitudes remain with him? Well, they are contradicted in other examples of his writing."

Replace Bakunin with Corbyn and you'd be labelled as an apologist. But like I say - I'm not actually accusing you of anything. I wanted to make the point that focusing on Corbyn and Labour is not holding everyone else to the same standards, and I've made it the point. I'll bow out now too.

The point you are making is pure whataboutery. It’s pretty ugly.

I have never claimed the Labour Party had more antisemitism than other organisations (insert names here). I don’t even think it does. I think percentage and saturation wise, the SWP for example is many magnitudes worse.

But when has it ever been an excuse to say “our racism problem isn’t as bad as the KKK’s”? Of course it isn’t. Nobody thinks Corbyn advocated the final solution ffs. And harping on and on and on that he didn’t is only making things worse. Come on. Page 155 now!

 

[bimble]

Just out of curiousity two sheds do you feel that if it weren't for this whole antisemitism thing Corbyn would be the Pm now?

 

[two sheds]

The point you are making is pure whataboutery. It’s pretty ugly.

I have never claimed the Labour Party had more antisemitism than other organisations (insert names here). I don’t even think it does. I think percentage and saturation wise, the SWP for example is many magnitudes worse.

But when has it ever been an excuse to say “our racism problem isn’t as bad as the KKK’s”? Of course it isn’t. Nobody thinks Corbyn advocated the final solution ffs. And harping on and on and on that he didn’t is only making things worse. Come on. Page 155 now!

I've agreed that labour had (doubtless still has) a problem with antisemitism but the extent has been blown up by the media and the right of the party. So I've not been harping on and on that there was no problem. I think it's fair to point this out. And yes page 155 and this seems still to be disputed.

 

[two sheds]

Just out of curiousity two sheds do you feel that if it weren't for this whole antisemitism thing Corbyn would be the Pm now?

Probably not - the Sun and the Daily Mail and the Express and the Telegraph and the BBC and the Guardian would have found something else - support for terrorism perhaps. Did get close in 2017 though. If the focus had been on his policies then he might well have done then.

 

[frogwoman]

Try having 'what about this thing with jeremy corbyn then.' at your mates birthday drinks. Every fucking time.

 

[frogwoman]

Apart from Jews I don't think the antisemitism stuff had any more than a marginal impact on the average Tory voter except possibly to feed into a general story about his lack of patriotism tbh. It's not as though there's a shortage of antisemites among non-Labour voters. There is less than 300,000 Jews in the UK and he lost by a lot more than that.

 

[Pickman's model]

A loss they'll be reeling from for some time to come.

they'll be dancing away for a long time to come

 

[killer b]

And I don't think your comparison (ie would I dismiss a woman's complaint of harrassment) is good; this whole issue has been massively politicised within the Labour civil war, it means it's quite hard (impossible?) to take anyone's word just on good faith, there's been far too much bad faith and it just seems at odds with my experience. Maybe I was just lucky.

Are you a woman or a jew, out of idle curiousity?

 

[two sheds]

Apart from Jews I don't think the antisemitism stuff had any more than a marginal impact on the average Tory voter except possibly to feed into a general story about his lack of patriotism tbh.

I think it had quite an effect on floating voters though. My neighbour (who is lovely but a Mail reader) hated Corbyn because of his antisemitism before the election.

 

[danny la rouge]

I've agreed that labour had (doubtless still has) a problem with antisemitism but the extent has been blown up by the media and the right of the party. So I've not been harping on and on that there was no problem. I think it's fair to point this out. And yes page 155 and this seems still to be disputed.

The whataboutery keeps being raised. Not always by you, but always. And in many forms. And you can’t even recognise them. You said yourself “I’ve never seen it asked before”. But it’s relentless. And it’s never an answer, excuse or mitigation, in any of its guises.

I have no interest in shaming any individuals on this thread. I don’t think that helps anyone. People make mistakes. All people. I’m not attacking you. I’m frustrated by your position.

“isn’t the revolutionary left as bad as Labour?” Yes, and some sections considerably worse. BUT THAT ISN’T A GOOD APOLOGY.

“I’m sorry I punched you, but at least I didn’t rape you and kill you”.

 

[two sheds]

Again though, is there room for a thread on combatting antisemitism without focusing on just the Labour party because I don't think anyone here would be arguing with that.

 

[Shechemite]

It’s a mistake we can all make

 

[danny la rouge]

Again though, is there room for a thread on combatting antisemitism without focusing on just the Labour party because I don't think anyone here would be arguing with that.

There is a thread about antisemitism elsewhere on the left.

However if you’re wondering why it hasn’t got as many pages, part of that will be because the revolutionary left doesn’t have as many members or as much reach. Not even close.

 

[two sheds]

The whataboutery keeps being raised. Not always by you, but always. And in many forms. And you can’t even recognise them. You said yourself “I’ve never seen it asked before”. But it’s relentless. And it’s never an answer, excuse or mitigation, in any of its guises.

I have no interest in shaming any individuals on this thread. I don’t think that helps anyone. People make mistakes. All people. I’m not attacking you. I’m frustrated by your position.

“isn’t the revolutionary left as bad as Labour?” Yes, and some sections considerably worse. BUT THAT ISN’T A GOOD APOLOGY.

“I’m sorry I punched you, but at least I didn’t rape you and kill you”.

I've not seen someone ask the question I asked before. I appreciate your focus on the issues rather than the people, but I'm frustrated as well - like you say 155 pages and there's still people saying that all antisemitism in labour is being denied.

The other side to whataboutery is "He punched me". "Yes but you raped and killed him first " (yes, I know ...)

It's the relentless focus on antisemitism in Labour and magnifying it that I object to. Antisemitic opinions in Labour in that YouGov survey showed that antisemitic opinions by labour voters were less frequent than in the rest of the population.

I want to get rid of antisemitism too but I don't think we're going to do that by just focusing on Labour because that sets the left against the left. We need to focus on antisemitism in wider society - and yes with Labour as an example but not as the only example. And yes you admit the problems on the left as you say - but then lets look broadly, not just focus on Labour.

But I'm going to walk the dog.

 

[bimble]

It’s a mistake we can all make View attachment 242365

whats the story there do you know? (he's locked his account straight after posting that sincere apology.

 

[danny la rouge]

lets look broadly, not just focus on Labour.

I’m sorry for my crimes, but they do have to be seen in the context of some really bad crimes some big boys over there did.

 

[frogwoman]

I think it had quite an effect on floating voters though. My neighbour (who is lovely but a Mail reader) hated Corbyn because of his antisemitism before the election.

It had some effect on left/liberal leaning people yes but I said 'the average Tory voter'. And don't forget there are plenty of people who don't really care about Jews but more worried about him 'disrespecting the war dead' or associating with terrorists or whatever.

 

[ska invita]

Regardless what the exact thing that has triggered the meeting/ motion / whatever, it dissolves into whataboutery, outright denialism & veiled antisemitism, just like these threads. That's the problem I'm talking about, the trigger to that happening is pretty irrelevant.

Its massively relevant
Its exactly why the weaponisation of antisemitism is so disgraceful and damaging

imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts.

Yes, agree, and who is to blame for that?
See above, and why it's so relevant