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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

I disagree, it's a fair point. As the BoD were demanding members of the Labour party were investigated/disciplined and the LP leadership sign up to their pledges Tory MPs were openly celebrating the erection of the statue to Astor as if her anti-semitism didn't matter. I don't think I saw an article by the JC or a single tweet from the BoD at the time. The double standards are obvious and that's a good example.
The BoD are conservative because they’re a long established religious body, not because they’re Jewish. rummo is mapping class onto Jewishness, and then not seeing (I hope) where s/he (he I think: please tell us your pronouns rummo) is applying antisemitic tropes, and hoping that qualifiers like “most” is a way out of this. It isn’t, and not just because the judgement is difficult to justify statistically. Although that is of course a line of questioning, and one you were keen to pursue. My interest lay elsewhere.

The Board of Deputies are conservative and reactionary. This isn’t controversial. They apply double standards. Also not controversial. But when you start putting that together with whether they are acting in the class interests of Jews in Britain, then one has to start being very careful about what it is one is implying.

Jewishness is not exactly the same as being a practitioner of Judaism. And antisemitism does not restrict itself to religious Jews. Once we start trying to move from a specific to a generalisation about a “race”, then we start having to look at what it is that’s being said.

The fact that there are conservative Jews does not mean there is not a antisemitism problem on the left. The fact that there is a conservative Jewish body turning a blind eye to antisemitism on the right does not mean there is no antisemitism on the left. Nor in fact does it necessarily mean the antisemitism on the left is being exaggerated. It only means a blind eye is being turned to certain other antisemitism.

Nor does this mean that Jews as a bloc are acting in a composite Jewish/class interest. There is a body that the establishment is happy to use as “spokespeople” for a “racial” group, and that has an effect of pushing in a reactionary direction. This process can be seen duplicating itself across many groups, creating the impression of a growing ghettoisation of society into ever more reactionary “communities”. The trouble is that this is a self-fulfilling process. It is “Racecraft”. The sign that racism is at work. It entrenches racism in society, and leads us ever further into the pseudoscientific biologicalisation of politics.

So let’s start where we have some agency. Does the left have an antisemitism problem? Yes it does. Does it help Jewish people to feel comfortable with left politics if we say “no, actually”, or “what about”, or “I’ve never seen it”, or “not all lefties”. Not a good look, is it?

Corbyn’s handling of his party’s problem was inept, and allowed his enemies to zone in on his weakness, like a king and a rook chasing a lone king into smaller and smaller squares until checkmate was eventually possible, because Corbyn limited his own moves, lost his high value pieces and couldn’t command the centre of the board (sorry, I’m taking this too far but I’ve just finished the Queen’s Gambit).

This was in large measure because Corbyn has himself too long moved in a milieu where antisemitism has seeped into the discourse, and he has himself absorbed some of it. The prism through which he is looking is already skewed. He doesn’t notice tropes in murals and so on.

Left electoral politics has the ever present problem of what the establishment will allow. As an extra parliamentary communist I get impatient with the Labour left running itself into checkmate and then, when analysing old games, refusing to learn the lessons of its mistakes.
 
Yes it does. Does it help Jewish people to feel comfortable with left politics if we say “no, actually”, or “what about”, or “I’ve never seen it”, or “not all lefties”.
this is really important, and considering the discussion on here over the last week - a board where the posters are supposedly politically sophisticated - can understand entirely why the Labour Party has tried to clamp down on discussion in CLPs: because every time this is discussed it dissolves into this kind of whataboutery (at best - it often dissolves into outright denialism & veiled or not so veiled antisemitism). This always happens - and we end up with this.

challenging it becomes a pretty pointless endeavour so they don't bother, and many end being repelled by organised left wing politics altogether.

Some jewish leftwingers choose to ignore or excuse this stuff, and I can understand how that happens. But those that don't are being driven out.
 
Agree with a lot but not all of that danny la rouge but it's the sort of thing I'd rather discuss in PM than on this thread.

I'd add though, the BOD is the sort of organisation run by people who like putting themselves forward for being on church (or synagogue in this case) committees. It needs to be thought of like that. Ridiculously bureaucratic and slow moving, and with a lot of social conservatism and adherence to daft rules. Yes every synagogue puts forward a member supposedly voted by the members, but in practice many people (me for example) never know when these elections are going on, and often nobody else will put themselves forward. Not all of them are right wing, a few are active left wingers and many aren't that interested in politics at all.

Indeed, some Likudnik type campaigning groups have been formed explicitly in opposition to the BOD because its too 'establishment' and left wing. :D
 
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I didn't even know that BOD is made up of synagogue representatives. Learnt yesterday that it’s estimated that about half of jews in the uk are members of a synagogue, the other half incl me are not, so already that's half who are not even nominally being represented at all, by this great voice that is presumed to speak for us all.

At the same time though, JVL can really fuck off.
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' rummo is mapping class onto Jewishness, and then not seeing (I hope) where s/he (he I think: please tell us your pronouns rummo) is applying antisemitic tropes, and hoping that qualifiers like “most” is a way out of this. It isn’t, and not just because the judgement is difficult to justify statistically. '

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Would you level the same accusation, and with the same implied innuendo, at Daniel Staetsky, whose piece I liked to, who made the same point I did, albeit more eloquently and more authoritatively than me (in fairness it's his day job and professional specialism) ?
 
I slightly disagree with the bit about Corbyn's inept handling. Not that it wasn't inept, just that the only thing in his power was to platitudinise about the problem or perform some sort of showy gesture about it.

Now that we have Starmer who is platitudinising better than Corbyn and willing to perform any (authoritarian) gesture demanded of him, that's more or less fixed Labour's antisemitism problem in terms of it being a political problem for the Labour Party, but is the actual problem for Jews on the ground any better? I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't see why it makes any real difference what the party leader does or does not do.
 
this is really important, and considering the discussion on here over the last week - a board where the posters are supposedly politically sophisticated - can understand entirely why the Labour Party has tried to clamp down on discussion in CLPs: because every time this is discussed it dissolves into this kind of whataboutery (at best - it often dissolves into outright denialism & veiled or not so veiled antisemitism). This always happens - and we end up with this.
What is being discussed at CLPs though is not anti-semitism, but the actions and response from Starmer - ones that directly and immediately contradict the findings and suggestions of the EHRC report. It is HIS actions that fuel the fire that your describe. It gives grounds for the belief "this is all just a witchhunt", which in turn feeds into a downplaying of the actual problem.
 
I slightly disagree with the bit about Corbyn's inept handling. Not that it wasn't inept, just that the only thing in his power was to platitudinise about the problem or perform some sort of showy gesture about it.
My memory of it is he seemed to be dealing with it proportionately and tried to speed the process along even, only to be sabotaged by Labour Party HQ , no?
 
Now that we have Starmer who is platitudinising better than Corbyn and willing to perform any (authoritarian) gesture demanded of him, that's more or less fixed Labour's antisemitism problem in terms of it being a political problem for the Labour Party, but is the actual problem for Jews on the ground any better? I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't see why it makes any real difference what the party leader does or does not do.
Agree. imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts. And that's where Corb's statement could be said to be right, about the overblown media attention hurting jews. It’s just not what he meant.
 
Would you level the same accusation, and with the same implied innuendo, at Daniel Staetsky, whose piece I liked to, who made the same point I did, albeit more eloquently and more authoritatively than me (in fairness it's his day job and professional specialism) ?
I haven’t read the Staetsky article. But I’m afraid “I found a Jew I think agrees with me” is not the get out of jail card you think.
 
What is being discussed at CLPs though is not anti-semitism, but the actions and response from Starmer - ones that directly and immediately contradict the findings and suggestions of the EHRC report. It is HIS actions that fuel the fire that your describe. It gives grounds for the belief "this is all just a witchhunt", which in turn feeds into a downplaying of the actual problem.
Regardless what the exact thing that has triggered the meeting/ motion / whatever, it dissolves into whataboutery, outright denialism & veiled antisemitism, just like these threads. That's the problem I'm talking about, the trigger to that happening is pretty irrelevant.
 
danny la rouge thanks for your post. I'd have a couple of slight disagreements/questions too but again they'd be better in PM.

One question though that is slightly off topic but a sort of thought experiment. What are communists on the board doing to root out antisemitic communists (and similarly what are anarchists doing to root out antisemitic anarchists)? I ask because presumably you accept Marx's analysis and I've seen quotes that suggest antisemitism was central to that analysis (similarly Bakunin).

And no I don't really believe this but I'd like an answer anyway.:)
 
'Staetsky seems like a weird likudnik'


In fairness, perhaps not everyone can be as free from prejudice as you.

Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound? Seriously.
 
I'm starting to get the impression that you're not nearly as smart or well informed as you think you are.
I’m making no claim to intelligence or erudition. In this instance I’m saying two things:

1). You finding a Jewish academic whose work you say backs up your argument says nothing at all - at all - about whether you’re otherwise falling for antisemitic tropes.

2). The argument is in any case a dead end. My GPs are all Asian. Does that tell me anything about whether or not they experience racism? Not in the least.

That is not to say that there aren’t class processes at work. Just not where you’re labouring to find them.
 
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danny la rouge thanks for your post. I'd have a couple of slight disagreements/questions too but again they'd be better in PM.

One question though that is slightly off topic but a sort of thought experiment. What are communists on the board doing to root out antisemitic communists (and similarly what are anarchists doing to root out antisemitic anarchists)? I ask because presumably you accept Marx's analysis and I've seen quotes that suggest antisemitism was central to that analysis (similarly Bakunin).

And no I don't really believe this but I'd like an answer anyway.:)
Not sure I understand the question. But if you are asking “was Bakunin antisemitic?”, then the answer is of course that he did say antisemitic things. He was also Slav nationalist for a period. Did these attitudes remain with him? Well, they are contradicted in other examples of his writing. I’m not so interested in individual morality or blame. People can change. I’m interested in societal forces.
 
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