Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[danny la rouge]

Is it not strange then that there are so many people who have known in for decades, and who would be alert to such a thing, say otherwise, Michael Rosen, Miriam Margolyes, John Bercow, Geoffrey Alderman etc?

No.

 

[danny la rouge]

You're missing the point rummo of course there's been an attack from the right, but seriously, what do you expect? This is capitalism and that's what it does, and anything perceived to be the least threat to 'business as usual' will be met with maximum hostility... and that includes the mild-mannered slightly left capitalist Corbynism. But it really hasn't helped that there's this whopping big smoking gun of "anti-Zionists" and assorted red-brown dickheads who can't stop themselves from endlessly banging on about the Jews... ahem... sorry, the Zionists. If you don't know this, then just for one minute you need to bin off your rose tinted goggles sharpish. Sure, it's exaggerated, sure the right have made political capital out of it, but so fucking what. Sort yourself out.

"But the Tories and the far right are the real racists!" Of course they are. But we expect it from them twats. If you're on the left, there's no fucking excuse for dogwhistle racism and anti semitism. And the fact that the left really should know better kind of makes it worse.

Exactly.

 

[rummo]

yes. The problem pre dates corbyn.
what is your hope rummo if you have one, from posting all this stuff, what would you like to see happen.

Telling the truth is an end in itself.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is it not strange then that there are so many people who have known in for decades, and who would be alert to such a thing, say otherwise, Michael Rosen, Miriam Margolyes, John Bercow, Geoffrey Alderman etc?

John bercow famously never in the labour party tho as a former Monday clubber he'd know quite a bit about racism of all sorts

 

[Pickman's model]

Telling the truth is an end in itself.

So now you've arrived at your destination what more have you got to offer?

 

[rummo]

No.

It doesn't give you cause to think that maybe they're smarter than you, more perspicacious, more knowledgeable, have more insight than you and that their collective opinion might therefore be more accurate, closer to the truth, than yours, which is based on, well what exactly is it based on, other than ignorance, and arrogance and prejudice?

 

[rummo]

John bercow famously never in the labour party tho as a former Monday clubber he'd know quite a bit about racism of all sorts

So no political allegiance to Corbyn, and therefore no reason not to accuse him of being anti Semitic then, is that what you are trying to say?

Or are we now so far down the rabbit hole that those who share his politics are lying because they share his politics, and those who are political opponents are lying because they are right wing?

 

[rummo]

So now you've arrived at your destination what more have you got to offer?

Do I need your permission to post on here? Is that how this works? Is there some kind of weird group think consensus that everyone has to conform to?

 

[Pickman's model]

Do I need your permission to post on here? Is that how this works? Is there some kind of weird group think consensus that everyone has to conform to?

1) if you did why should I give it? 2) sadly not 3) only about potatoes, hobnobs and lending money

 

[killer b]

It's absolutely the case that antisemitism has existed on the left, and on the left of the Labour Party for much longer than the last five years: we've discussed it here, and it's specific forms - in the Palestinian solidarity movement, in the Anti-war movements and in the Occupy movement, mostly - many times over the years.

It's also absolutely the case that it has been used for factional advantage by enemies of the left. One thing this has caused is the metastasization of the problem, as alluded to upthread: many people in the party with no real experience of or formed opinion of antisemitism previously were forced to take a position. Many of them chose badly, and many of our jewish friends no longer feel comfortable organising in the left as a result.

So here we are. Regardless of the attacks from the right - which will always be there - we have a house to put in order, so that our friends once again feel they have a place.

 

[frogwoman]

'Staetsky seems like a weird likudnik'


In fairness, perhaps not everyone can be as free from prejudice as you.

Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound? Seriously.

Demanding people read an article across several threads by some creepy anti Palestinian racist (read the other articles/headlines on his site for instance) with an interest in such fascinating questions as 'why muslim arabs have so many children' in support of a view that 'this is what jews really think' about labour, then yeah of course I'm gonna have something to say about it.

 

[Knotted]

But Maureen Lipman felt unwelcome in left wing circles when Ed Milliband was the leader of the Labour Party, and said so at the time.

That's not what she said at the time. She left over recognising Palestine as a state. But if she had left because of antisemitism in the party, then what is your point?

Do you understand that you are conflating political fallout over Israel/Palestine with complaints about anti-Semitism? You know that thing the left were complaining about in the IHRA definition.

More importantly how do you think flinging Maureen bloody Lipman into the fray looks to Jews on here who have nothing to do with her or her politics?

The best thing you can do right now is take a break from this.

 

[danny la rouge]

It doesn't give you cause to think that maybe they're smarter than you, more perspicacious, more knowledgeable, have more insight than you and that their collective opinion might therefore be more accurate, closer to the truth, than yours, which is based on, well what exactly is it based on, other than ignorance, and arrogance and prejudice?

I think that many Jewish people brought up in Western cultures, especially older people, say the post war generation, and that includes people moving in left circles, grew up around low level prejudice that they came not to see because it was everywhere and their bigger problem was the more noticeable hate crimes.

There’s a parallel here with African Americans who grew up in the pre civil rights explosion era. Take Louis Armstrong. A particular hero of mine (and I have but few). He publicly denounced Eisenhower and Gov. Faubus, but because of the way of the society he grew up in overlooked lower level everyday prejudice he was enured to. Things the following generation of African American jazz musicians thought he shouldn’t put up with.

So, no. I don’t think it’s surprising that some people don’t see it.

I know Corbyn is a long term anti racist campaigner. He absolutely is. That does not mean that he hasn’t imbibed antisemitic tropes. Many bona fide antiracists have. Including people who read and post on this thread. And it’s our responsibility on the broader left to own up to it and do something about it. Not moan about how unfair it is and how much worse the right is.

 

[frogwoman]

Well that and also if you spend your whole life challenging it you'd never get anything done. It's exhausting.

 

[bimble]

It doesn't give you cause to think that maybe they're smarter than you, more perspicacious, more knowledgeable, have more insight than you and that their collective opinion might therefore be more accurate, closer to the truth, than yours, which is based on, well what exactly is it based on, other than ignorance, and arrogance and prejudice?

Lol

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The truth is Corbyn is antisemitic. Not “gas them” antisemitic but “Ooh, cool mural” antisemitic.

Which also answers Kevbad the Bad ’s question of how people can hide in constituency meetings. They aren’t saying “gas them”, they’re saying “cool mural”.

Except they don't go round saying either one, by and large (I'm sure someone can find an example somewhere). The mural was crap but many people's initial reaction was to defend artistic expression, freedom from censorship etc. That was my first thought too. I didn't travel to London to look at it. I saw it on a phone and didn't see the detail properly. I changed my opinion later, thanks to a posting of the mural on this thread. But that's how things work.

 

[frogwoman]

Well there is, of course, one notable example

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

1) if you did why should I give it? 2) sadly not 3) only about potatoes, hobnobs and lending money

Just exactly what is your standpoint when it comes to hobnobs?

 

[cantsin]

Except they don't go round saying either one, by and large (I'm sure someone can find an example somewhere). The mural was crap but many people's initial reaction was to defend artistic expression, freedom from censorship etc. That was my first thought too. I didn't travel to London to look at it. I saw it on a phone and didn't see the detail properly. I changed my opinion later, thanks to a posting of the mural on this thread. But that's how things work.

between 79 - 98 % of FB users access via mobile - chances of anyone on mobile seeing the detail in that mural ? somewhere between low > near impossible ( try it )

but sure,definitely worth basing the assessment of a 40 + year career of ceaseless anti racism campaigning around this 'issue' ( and there's no point peeps denying it, ' the mural' was central to all this as it ratcheted up )

Facebook users reach by device 2022 | Statista

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www.statista.com

 

[killer b]

well, I'm glad to see we're making progress.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wouldn't want to downplay how bad it was that Corbyn didn't recognise the problem with the mural. If you can't see something properly, don't comment on it until you can, and the devil isn't really in the detail of it anyway - the tropes are there very boldly. But he did apologise afterwards. Does anyone think it wasn't a genuine mistake. That matters, imo, because there is a huge difference between laughing at/admiring/praising antisemitic tropes because they are antisemitic tropes and praising a work because you haven't recognised those tropes. The former is antisemitism. The latter isn't necessarily.

 

[killer b]

I first saw that mural on a phone too, when an anti-fracking activist friend of mine posted it on facebook. I got into an argument with him when I challenged him for posting racist shit. The eye/pyramid thing is pretty fucking prominent, you can't miss it even on a phone.

 

[danny la rouge]

Except they don't go round saying either one, by and large (I'm sure someone can find an example somewhere).

This is an internet bulletin board. I sometimes use shorthand. My point is that unnoticed tropes circulate. I first noticed this long long before Corbyn, and it was something I felt I had to educate myself on too.

The thing is, though, the left (and Labour only barely makes it into the very wide net this word throws, btw) has to stop starting its response with “except”.

 

[Pickman's model]

Just exactly what is your standpoint when it comes to hobnobs?

Here, help yourself

 

[frogwoman]

I can't believe I'm still having this conversation tbh.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

This is an internet bulletin board. I sometimes use shorthand. My point is that unnoticed tropes circulate. I first noticed this long long before Corbyn, and it was something I felt I had to educate myself on too.

The thing is, though, the left (and Labour only barely makes it into the very wide net this word throws, btw) has to stop starting its response with “except”.

But...

 

[danny la rouge]

But...

Good work comrade.

 

[cantsin]

I first saw that mural on a phone too, when an anti-fracking activist friend of mine posted it on facebook. I got into an argument with him when I challenged him for posting racist shit. The eye/pyramid thing is pretty fucking prominent, you can't miss it even on a phone.

the eye / pyramid is standard NWO / Anon / post Occupy stuff, not my bag, but not what people are highlighting when they point to the mural as AS (as you must know )

 

[killer b]

the eye / pyramid is standard NWO / Anon / post Occupy stuff, not my bag, but not what people are highlighting when they point to the mural as AS (as you must know )

It's a huge red flag for antisemitism, even if it sometimes appears in a non-antisemitic context (when??)

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah it's the same shit I was banging on about a decade ago. Given an endorsement by the leadership of one of the main political parties in the uk. Standard.