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Labour & Anti-Semitism.

Attempting a debate relating to religon with the adherent to any religon is a complete waste of time, once indoctrinated myths become facts and facts become plastic.

Says the person indoctrinated with myths about the adherents of religion.
 
I'm calling it out, not mirroring it.
Except that the evidence of its existence in this case isn't a statement that conflates 'Israeli' with 'Jewish' (and we all know that it's not hard to find such things being said on the left, hence the existence of this thread). It's simply the fact, or impression, or assumption, that Israel is being singled out. That's a very dangerous route to take, precisely because it lumps anti-Semitic criticism of Israel together with criticism that contains no anti-Semitism beyond that implied by assumptions about why the criticism is being made. It's a bulletproof position.
 
You think it’s intentional in some way gsv the way that Israel’s crimes are much more energising to people than those other countries? I don’t think it’s at all that simple , don’t think anyone is consciously choosing to ‘dump on jews’ it’s more interesting than that, imo, but the level at which this conversation’s being had here is just basic as duck and not going to go anywhere imo.

It's difficult though bimble. For example I'm getting emails from Medical Aid for Palestinians saying that there's a real emergency now, particularly with coronavirus, because they're running out of medical supplies. It's being made worse by the blockade, which implicitly criticizes Israel, but Is me mentioning this without discussing China or the Saudis anti-semitic?
 
I didn’t have to mention Angola when criticising apartheid South Africa so I’m fucked if I need to mention other places when criticising apartheid Israel.
Those were different times. Really. A major failure of the left is that it assumed that models developed in a past era in southern Africa could be transferred en bloc to the Israeli/Palestinian context. The similarities between the two cases were real and important - but the differences were, and are, even more important.
 
It's difficult though bimble. For example I'm getting emails from Medical Aid for Palestinians saying that there's a real emergency now, particularly with coronavirus, because they're running out of medical supplies. It's being made worse by the blockade, which implicitly criticizes Israel, but Is me mentioning this without discussing China or the Saudis anti-semitic?
No, it’s not. nor would be mentioning the lack of water in Gaza, or giving all your time and money to one chosen cause that you care about over another of the countless injustices in the world. That should be obvious, imo.
tbh I can’t really do this subject here, it seems like people whose thoughts I usually find interesting are stuck at an incredibly simplistic sort of level when discussing this subject, so it’s saddening and repetitious.
 
It's difficult though bimble. For example I'm getting emails from Medical Aid for Palestinians saying that there's a real emergency now, particularly with coronavirus, because they're running out of medical supplies. It's being made worse by the blockade, which implicitly criticizes Israel, but Is me mentioning this without discussing China or the Saudis anti-semitic?
"Other humanitarian catastrophes are available" - sorted.
 
Abso-lucking-futely.

Israel is culpable for an awful lot of ethno-vile shit. But nothing that isn't also seen in India (Kashmir), China, Burma, Sri Lanka and the US. Those just off the top of my head. The left protests Israel at a volume out of all proportion to those others. As a people persecuted over centuries for not having a homeland, we call bullshit on now being persecuted for having a homeland.
Not for having a homeland but for what you do with it. How do you feel about the conditions the Israeli government imposes on Gaza's residents and the illegal settlements in the West Bank?
 
Yeah it seems ok - my only problem isI'd hate to forward the link on, only to be told there was something dodgy elsewhere on their site.


It's a respectable site.
Peter Oborne is a well known and respected journalist in the mainstream media though he is unusual in being principled and forthright.
He's also an old school Tory and cricket fanatic.
His twitter feed is interesting.
 
Those were different times. Really. A major failure of the left is that it assumed that models developed in a past era in southern Africa could be transferred en bloc to the Israeli/Palestinian context. The similarities between the two cases were real and important - but the differences were, and are, even more important.
you can't simply transpose the way of ending South African apartheid onto Israeli apartheid, for sure, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't point out that they are both apartheid states. And any reasonable human being opposes apartheid. This is an important point to make.
 
What I do with it? I'm British. Never been Israeli. That attitude right there's part of the problem.
well you were the one doing the conflating of criticism of Israel with criticism of jews. So maybe the problem is yours.
 
you can't simply transpose the way of ending South African apartheid onto Israeli apartheid, for sure, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't point out that they are both apartheid states. And any reasonable human being opposes apartheid. This is an important point to make.

I made that point, only less forcefully, on the on-line antisemitism course I did and was called antisemitic for it.
 
Those were different times. Really. A major failure of the left is that it assumed that models developed in a past era in southern Africa could be transferred en bloc to the Israeli/Palestinian context. The similarities between the two cases were real and important - but the differences were, and are, even more important.
So a comparison with SA is a start to a conversation rather than an end. Fine. But that cuts two ways. Those pointing out differences to explain why they dislike the comparison also need to recognise why the similarities are pointed out and the strength of feeling behind the position, which cannot be dismissed so easily as, for instance, internalised historical prejudice.
 
oh yes it is
You're a racist prick.

Edit.
Let me qualify that. For most people it's something they're not really concious of. In your case you're jumping through rhetorical hoops to maintain your position. You making an active effort to maintain a racist rhetoric. That puts you firmly in the category.
 
Yep, and in the context of an organisation that that adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism that makes 9 references to the state of Israel.
You might conclude that the two things (antisemitism on the left and the state of Israel) are connected! Maybe even in ways that would be well worth intelligently talking about and understanding! But that never happens, we just get the same stupid quagmire every time, for decades.
 
You're a racist prick.

Edit.
Let me qualify that. For most people it's something they're not really concious of. In your case you're jumping through rhetorical hoops to maintain your position. You making an active effort to maintain a racist rhetoric. That puts you firmly in the category.
Well, judging by your remarks you are a complete pillock. You may not be conscious of this, but I'm putting you firmly in that category.
 
You might conclude that the two things (antisemitism on the left and the state of Israel) are connected! Maybe even in ways that would be well worth intelligently talking about and understanding! But that never happens, we just get the same stupid quagmire every time, for decades.
I think I'm right in saying that all 3 mainstream political parties in the UK have effectively adopted the IHRA definition that makes 9 references to Israel. Not quite sure what your point is.
 
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I think I'm right in saying that all 3 mainstream political parties in the UK have effectively adopted the IHRA definition that makes 9 references to Isrrael. Not quite sure what your point is.

If you're like me and you don't see this as a good thing, then the best policy is not to encourage them. No? Otherwise we end up with posts like gsv's and people shouting "racist!" at each other.
 
What I do with it? I'm British. Never been Israeli. That attitude right there's part of the problem.
ah right, you're taking the wee. the 'we' in your post didn't actually mean we. my you wasn't you gsv but to your we. are we ie you and me on the same page now?
 
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You're a racist prick.

Edit.
Let me qualify that. For most people it's something they're not really concious of. In your case you're jumping through rhetorical hoops to maintain your position. You making an active effort to maintain a racist rhetoric. That puts you firmly in the category.
Don't blame me for your words, sunshine. You are the one claiming that me criticising apartheid Israel is me condemning jews. You've come out with the usual lazy whatabouterries and not actually responded to any of the criticisms or points being made. You're being very dishonest, which is why you have nothing left but to whine 'ooh you're a racist'. For condemning apartheid
 
If you're like me and you don't see this as a good thing, then the best policy is not to encourage them. No? Otherwise we end up with posts like gsv's and people shouting "racist!" at each other.
Personally, I think that any organisation adopting any definition of racism that refers to the actions of a state holds obvious pitfalls.
 
Personally, I think that any organisation adopting any definition of racism that refers to the actions of a state holds obvious pitfalls.

Yeah, me too. And what's more that's all that needs to be said on the subject. As soon as we're into details about eg. what does and does not constitute apartheid then we've lost.
 
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