Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[Kevbad the Bad]

It's everyone, whatever their nationality, ethnicity or religious affinity who supports the concept of Zionism, which is a political belief, that's all it is.

How many people in the UK support Zionism? How many of them are Jewish? Do the math. Most Zionists are not Jewish.

Hang on. Even if many people in the UK support Israel, that doesn't make them Zionists. They may, for whatever reason, identify with or support Israel but don't necessarily support Zionism as a concept or even understand it or know anything about it.

 

[two sheds]

It's everyone, whatever their nationality, ethnicity or religious affinity who supports the concept of Zionism, which is a political belief, that's all it is.

How many people in the UK support Zionism? How many of them are Jewish? Do the math. Most Zionists are not Jewish.

Zionism as in state of Israel yes I'd agree and that would make me a Zionist, but doesn't it also include the state of Palestine in which case I wouldn't be a Zionist, and I think many in the UK wouldn't be either if the difference was explained to them.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm with you up until that point. Are they not? Christians in the USA for example do you mean?

Oh dear oh dear

 

[danny la rouge]

Be fair, you did start off with

When a first time poster picks this thread as the one to start off on, I have to admit it sets my antenna tingling.

 

[rummo]

Hang on. Even if many people in the UK support Israel, that doesn't make them Zionists. They may, for whatever reason, identify with or support Israel but don't necessarily support Zionism as a concept or even understand it or know anything about it.

The point still stands. Most Zionists are not Jewish.

Moreover to assume, as the 'Is it the Jews' question did, that all Jews are Zionists is arguably in itself anti Semitic.

 

[two sheds]

Oh dear oh dear

well the fundamentalists want it to herald the second coming of Christ don't they?

 

[danny la rouge]

Moreover to assume, as the 'Is it the Jews' question did, that all Jews are Zionists

It did nothing of the sort. You filled the rest in yourself.

I’ll admit I’m making assumptions about you, too. I might be wrong. But we’ll see.

 

[bimble]

rummo has rocked up with a really clever idea which is that the word zionist means any person who, if you ask them, might say that a country called israel has the same 'right to exist' as whatever other state, that's it. its very insightful and will advance the conversation a lot.

 

[Pickman's model]

It did nothing of the sort. You filled the rest in yourself.

I’ll admit I’m making assumptions about you, too. I might be wrong. But we’ll see.

Put a fiver on it?

 

[danny la rouge]

Put a fiver on it?

What, that rummo is a statist “anti imperialist” who thinks their enemy’s enemy is their friend and is probably a fan of Vanessa Beeley? Because that’s what I’m offering bets on.

 

[rummo]

rummo has rocked up with a really clever idea which is that the word zionist means any person who, if you ask them, might say that a country called israel has the same 'right to exist' as whatever other state, that's it. its very insightful and will advance the conversation a lot.

I've said that most Zionists aren't Jewish.

Hardly a controversial or novel point, thought some here seem to find the concept troublesome, or maybe suspect that they are somehow being played or lured into a trap.

 

[krtek a houby]

I've said that most Zionists aren't Jewish.

Hardly a controversial or novel point, thought some here seem to find the concept troublesome, or maybe suspect that they are somehow being played or lured into a trap.

Most new posters aren't authentic, so some here could be forgiven for being suspicious.

 

[Shechemite]

No, it's not Jews. It's those, Jews and non Jews, who have weaponised anti Semitism to shut down discussion or criticism of the excesses of Zionism in particular, and, more generally in this context, the sort of socialism that Jeremy Corbyn represents.

If you are struggling with this try to remember that not all Jews are Zionists and most Zionists aren't Jews.

And we’re off!

 

[Serge Forward]

What, that rummo is a statist “anti imperialist” who thinks their enemy’s enemy is their friend and is probably a fan of Vanessa Beeley? Because that’s what I’m offering bets on.

If you add one more to that list, could we make it a yankee bet?

 

[Idris2002]

Here we go

 

[miktheword]

Middle Eastern Eye has been linked to on here before, maybe the Corbyn thread, as I remember reading the Oborne article on him a while back ; just seen it was June. So if dodgy, woulda thought someone woulda flagged it up back then.
and doubt if Oborne would put himself at risk by writing in it.

The killing of Jeremy Corbyn

The former Labour leader was the victim of a carefully planned and brutally executed political assassination

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Jay Park]

Zionism as in state of Israel yes I'd agree and that would make me a Zionist, but doesn't it also include the state of Palestine in which case I wouldn't be a Zionist, and I think many in the UK wouldn't be either if the difference was explained to them.

or the appalling apartheid policies, zero access to their own water source, and the fact that every month a little bit more land is removed from Palestinian ownership.

 

[Jay Park]

Put a fiver on it?

i’ll take that bet, can I pay in Turkish Lira should I lose?

 

[Jay Park]

Repeating things doesn't make them true. And making things up doesn't make them true either. i have no idea if you are actually a supporter of Israeli apartheid (which didn't start with the last atrocity or the last invasion of Gaza, it is the premise for the Israeli states existence), or just a bit thick. Either way, you are the one claiming the opposing a specific state is racist, whilst at the same time claiming that conflating that state with that ethnicity/religion is racist. You can't have it both ways.

Many Israeli’s I’ve come across are quick to offer the idea that the state and religion are separate. But as Butcher’s posted yonks back, that war criminal Netanyahu lost control of the right-wing elements of the media. You try having an open discourse about the oppressive nature of Israel with Israeli Jews, things often turn violent.

 

[Jay Park]

I guess I’m only reiterating this for my own solidification of the state of affairs there, as you lot are almost certainly well informed than I.

 

[Jay Park]

It's difficult though bimble. For example I'm getting emails from Medical Aid for Palestinians saying that there's a real emergency now, particularly with coronavirus, because they're running out of medical supplies. It's being made worse by the blockade, which implicitly criticizes Israel, but Is me mentioning this without discussing China or the Saudis anti-semitic?

no

 

[Jay Park]

No, it’s not. nor would be mentioning the lack of water in Gaza, or giving all your time and money to one chosen cause that you care about over another of the countless injustices in the world. That should be obvious, imo.
tbh I can’t really do this subject here, it seems like people whose thoughts I usually find interesting are stuck at an incredibly simplistic sort of level when discussing this subject, so it’s saddening and repetitious.

such sanctimonious language. Come on Dr. Geo-politics, enlighten us some more...

 

[Jay Park]

So a comparison with SA is a start to a conversation rather than an end. Fine. But that cuts two ways. Those pointing out differences to explain why they dislike the comparison also need to recognise why the similarities are pointed out and the strength of feeling behind the position, which cannot be dismissed so easily as, for instance, internalised historical prejudice.

you mention ‘the end’. South African apartheid finally ended, do you foresee the same thing happening in Israel?

 

[bimble]

such sanctimonious language. Come on Dr. Geo-politics, enlighten us some more...

Nah you carry on. I know that looked like arrogance but it was just exhaustion, It’s not geopolitics I know anything about just antisemitism.

 

[Pickman's model]

you mention ‘the end’. South African apartheid finally ended, do you foresee the same thing happening in Israel?

Soz starting backwards today but we have I trust covered the relationship between apartheid South Africa and Israel

 

[tim]

You try having an open discourse about the oppressive nature of Israel with Israeli Jews, things often turn violent.

That depends on which Israeli Jews you talk to, and is little different from similar conversations with say some: Ulster Protestants; Polish Catholics; French Laicists; Saudi or Bahraini Sunni; Indian Hindus; British Brexiteers or Remainders; or Greek Orthodox.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

French laicists eh? Those intolerant extremists? No reasoning with them.

That is also a first for me - a comparison of israel/palestine to brexit!

Heroic relativism.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

If you add one more to that list, could we make it a yankee bet?

if I added returning poster what odds would I get?

 

[Jay Park]

Nah you carry on. I know that looked like arrogance but it was just exhaustion, It’s not geopolitics I know anything about just antisemitism.

I thought I quoted lilbabymessiah, didn’t mean to quote you

 

[rummo]

What, that rummo is a statist “anti imperialist” who thinks their enemy’s enemy is their friend and is probably a fan of Vanessa Beeley? Because that’s what I’m offering bets on.

Middle Eastern Eye has been linked to on here before, maybe the Corbyn thread, as I remember reading the Oborne article on him a while back ; just seen it was June. So if dodgy, woulda thought someone woulda flagged it up back then.
and doubt if Oborne would put himself at risk by writing in it.

The killing of Jeremy Corbyn

The former Labour leader was the victim of a carefully planned and brutally executed political assassination

www.middleeasteye.net

What's interesting is that because Middle East Eye takes a different editorial line to what we are all used to the default assumption by many is that it must be 'dodgy'.

I suppose that's how cultural hegemony works, albeit that it most other instances it's not imposed quite so emphatically.