Treacle Toes
Time
'White lives don't matter'...as White lives...' meaning it's not just being 'White' that makes a life matter...as well you know.
Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
'White lives don't matter'...as White lives...' meaning it's not just being 'White' that makes a life matter...as well you know.
gsv
liminally queer
Dismissing allegations of anti-semitism with "proven links to the Israeli Embassy". There's a word for that.
In the opinion of many Jews (myself included) he patently is. Not that that's the core issue here.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The report protects non-anti-Semitic criticism of Israel. But while I reckon most of us on here would agree where the line is crossed when putting forward anti-Zionist ideas, the Israeli government of course disagrees. It wants 'anti-Zionist' and 'anti-Semitic' to be considered synonyms. It's pretty explicit about that.
As from around 20:50 in this, the Israeli ambassador to the UN gives the Israeli government's self-serving understanding of anti-Semitism.
'using different language when they speak about Israel'
'You can criticise Israel, absolutely, but don't criticise only Israel'
'this obsession, it comes from somewhere'
HARDtalk - Israel’s ambassador to the UN - Danny Danon - BBC Sounds
That's essentially the battleground now. How come you're singling out Israel? That's anti-Semitic.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
I still don't understand what you mean.
Sounds like you have some really dodgy views.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
^ really dodgy views.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
That's doable though I think. It's good to criticize China's disgusting repression and killing of Uighurs alongside Saudi Arabia's disgusting repression and killing of Yemenis alongside Israel's disgusting repression and killing of Palestinians.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, and when I say that I dislike the idea of a 'Jewish state', I actually am always careful to add that I also dislike the idea of an Islamic state or a Christian state or a Hindu state. Those who push such ideas are invariably reactionary, exclusionary forces. I'd like to see the world moving beyond that.
But that interview with the ambassador provides an example of where I might get into trouble. He laughably states that Arab Israelis are equal citizens, nothing to see here. Setting aside the problems with that within Israel itself, it simply ignores the Arabs who have lived under Israeli domination since 1967. Making a comparison between the occupied territories and South Africa's bantustans quite quickly leads to howls of anti-Semitism.
gsv
liminally queer
Abso-lucking-futely.
Israel is culpable for an awful lot of ethno-vile shit. But nothing that isn't also seen in India (Kashmir), China, Burma, Sri Lanka and the US. Those just off the top of my head. The left protests Israel at a volume out of all proportion to those others. As a people persecuted over centuries for not having a homeland, we call bullshit on now being persecuted for having a homeland.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
I quite like it - putting them alongside other repressive regimes puts it into perspective somewhat.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's an inherently piss-weak argument of course. 'How come you're singling us out?' is a tacit acknowledgement that there is merit to the critcism.
gsv
liminally queer
Oh look, the point went thaattaway!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Tend to agree; that and the whole issue of any attempt to establish the scale of the problem within the party. The logic of the grounds given for Corbyn's suspension would suggest that any questioning of the claims of the extent of Labour's antisemitism must be judged to constitute antisemitism. Could be a problem for Starmer if he starts to promote the idea that he has made progress in cleaning the Augean stables.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Well that's where Starmer the forensic lawyer is in a mess, isn't he? The report explicitly mentions protection of the right to criticise the israeli government and the right to disagree as to the extent and nature of the problem of anti-Semitism within the Labour party.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
No I think it’s entirely innocuous
BLM accused of anti-Semitism after posting photo of mural
The controversial mural, 'Freedom of Humanity', was posted online by Black Lives Matter Oxford as a cover photo on Facebook for an event.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Dangerous (for Starmer) precedent has been set.
Starmer : after 12 months of tireless work to address this problem I have reduced antisemitism within the LP significantly.
Campaign Against Antisemitism : not according to our observations and files...& to say otherwise is antisemitic.
Starmer : I have suspended myself pending investigation...
The LP now always has to be antisemitic and to say otherwise....
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Okay, so you don't like BLM, thanks for letting us know via a link (which I didn't open) to that well-known journalistic bastion of antiracism, The Daily Mail.No I think it’s entirely innocuous
BLM accused of anti-Semitism after posting photo of mural
The controversial mural, 'Freedom of Humanity', was posted online by Black Lives Matter Oxford as a cover photo on Facebook for an event.www.dailymail.co.uk
The same one which smeared Milliband senior as anti-British.
What about the rest of your dodgy comments?
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Sorry you’re right. I should be linking to the Canary or some other ‘really’ anti-racist media.
Do you think the anti-Jewish animus present in BLM is linked an anti-white animus?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Israel (not you) is criticised for creating a homeland by dispossessing the people who already lived there. It created that homeland by using the tactics it now condemns when used against them. It set up an explicitly racist state where the Arab population that was allowed to remain are third class citizens. And it did all that with the explicit help and support of the British state (even while the gangs were killing British squaddies).
those are fundamental differences with all the other examples you give. Oppression in many other states is indeed also appalling, but they don’t provide an excuse for not condemning Israeli violence, or - most importantly - it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call for a complete boycott of Israeli goods and a stopping of military support.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Did you read your own link?
I'm not going to defend using that mural, which I agree is very clearly anti-Semitic. However, neither is Oxford BLM...
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
BLM is decentralised like lots of movements - I've called out shit whether racist, classist, anti-semitic, and otherwise unhelpful, amongst people in various groups/actions I've been involved over the years. I've never seen such a movement not end up with that awkward rubbing up of different politics and positions under that, and unavoidably some pretty batshit and unpleasant stuff too - Occupy had exactly the same problem. And it needs people to call it out.
Regardless, how that ends up being extrapolated or conflated as a whole movement being a problem as implied above, I don't get. I mean, I got personally frustrated with seeing some of the anti-trans sentiment and broader 'iffy' views of some people who were particularly vocal around the social housing/Grenfell actions and because of that I held back a little from getting involved as I would have liked. However, its primary aims were sound as were many of the people involved, and as a decentralised set of groups/actions that is something that is difficult to escape sadly without it being challenged.
All of which is very different when applied to a political party structure and actions of its members. As we've seen through this whole sordid affair with Labour.
I'm unsure what is to be gained by channeling like a sub-Posie Parker either.
Regardless, how that ends up being extrapolated or conflated as a whole movement being a problem as implied above, I don't get. I mean, I got personally frustrated with seeing some of the anti-trans sentiment and broader 'iffy' views of some people who were particularly vocal around the social housing/Grenfell actions and because of that I held back a little from getting involved as I would have liked. However, its primary aims were sound as were many of the people involved, and as a decentralised set of groups/actions that is something that is difficult to escape sadly without it being challenged.
All of which is very different when applied to a political party structure and actions of its members. As we've seen through this whole sordid affair with Labour.
I'm unsure what is to be gained by channeling like a sub-Posie Parker either.
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
No. I am opposing a state and it’s actions not an ethnicity or a religion. And I can oppose several governments at the same time, whilst mentioning them all individually.
you’re rationale sounds horribly similar to SA apartheid apologists who said ‘well the uk is racist too, and Angola’s really awful.’
bimble
floofy
You think it’s intentional in some way gsv the way that Israel’s crimes are much more energising to people than those other countries? I don’t think it’s at all that simple , don’t think anyone is consciously choosing to ‘dump on jews’ it’s more interesting than that, imo, but the level at which this conversation’s being had here is just basic as duck and not going to go anywhere imo.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I've seen a few anti-semites talk about Israel but I've never seen any one of them express exclusive concern about the plight of Palestinians as opposed to eg. Uighurs or Kurds. They are much more interested in supposed Israeli influence. I'm willing to wager that in this country at least it is never about the threat posed to Arabs in a distant country and always the threat posed to themselves and people like them. Indeed, how else is demagogy supposed to work? But in any case where is the empirical basis that anti-semites are agitating against Jews by not talking about Uighurs and Kurds, how does this work, what are the real life examples?
I appreciate there can be a bit of monomania regarding Israel/Palestine with certain leftwingers. But then it's been a cause that has gestated for decades. you don't have to reach to explain that monomania. And whatever the problems may be with monomania, it isn't in itself a form racism. No more than the monomania with apartheid South Africa in the 80's was a form of racism.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Don't think that bit actually follows - you're still accusing the people more interested in Israel than elsewhere of making that conflation, doesn't matter if you do or don't, point is in their heads it's happening.
gsv
liminally queer
I'm calling it out, not mirroring it.
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