Ken scores Oil off Chavez for London Buses!

[TeeJay]

...Venezuelans get something back too - by renationalising the oil all profits go to the state, and therefore into projects designed to aleviate poverty and i cnrease literacy and healthcare etc.,. Better there than in the hands of BP, no?...

Venezeula's oil was already nationalised - back in the 1970s - way before Chavez appeared on the scene.

I still don't see how it benefits a poor country for its leader to give away its resources to a richer country. Creating a 'sense of solidarity' is a fairly feeble achievement while people live in poverty and seeing as it is a pretty shallow solidarity if you have to pay for it.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Yes Venezuela's oil was nationalised back in 1975 I read. It seems that what Chavez has done is to replace the people running the oil company with men who are sympathetic to his project. He made them cut production and so raise the cost per barrel to the buyers. I also understand they have a lot surplus oil stored which they cannot sell because of OPEC rules which Chavez supports. This might explain the cheap oil being used to win friends. There must be some let-out that enables him to by-pass the OPEC quota for special deals.

I will be checking further into this later.

 

[JoePolitix]

That isn't really the question is it?

What do Venezeulans get from London in return for the cheap oil?

The reports seem to indicate the following:

(1) The mayors aids will promote Venezuela's image throughout the UK

(2) Assistance with running Caracas's transport system, fighting crime and neigbhourhood policing

(3) Consultants will provide help with waste disposal, air quality and adult education

In exchange for this Londoners will recieve cheap fuel for the capitals buses - particularly the services most utilised by the poor.

I have to say that yet again I'm in agreement with niksativa when he writes "There is absolutely nothing to object about, unless that is, you're a cunt."

 

[TeeJay]

...He made them cut production and so raise the cost per barrel to the buyers...

This is unbelievable - oil prices are set on international markets, not by Venezeula cutting supply.

 

[TeeJay]

JoePolitix, those three things look very flimsey.

I can't see why Venezeulans need a bunch of consultants more than basic investment in their housing, infrastructure, education, health care and so forth.

I doubt very much that these consultants will do much in the way of actually policing, bus driving, teaching, waste collecting or anything else - they will nose around for a few months, write reports saying that more should be invested in these things, collect their fat pay cheques and go home.

"There is absolutely nothing to object about, unless that is, you're a cunt."

A transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich? If you think that objecting to this makes someone a 'cunt' then you are one pathetic joke of a 'leftwinger' or 'progressive' however you look at it.

You must be one gullible arsehole to be taken in by either Chavez or Livingstone, but as long as they keep making the right ideological noises it seems you will swallow any old shite they propose.

 

[JoePolitix]

Yes Venezuela's oil was nationalised back in 1975 I read. It seems that what Chavez has done is to replace the people running the oil company with men who are sympathetic to his project. He made them cut production and so raise the cost per barrel to the buyers. I also understand they have a lot surplus oil stored which they cannot sell because of OPEC rules which Chavez supports. This might explain the cheap oil being used to win friends. There must be some let-out that enables him to by-pass the OPEC quota for special deals.

I will be checking further into this later.

Whilst the PDVSA was formally nationalised in the 70s by the time Chavez was elected in 99 it was basically being run like a private company run by a self serving clique with little of the benefits trickeling to the Venezuelan people.

That's why Chavez purged the PDVSA of the paracites when he came to power and re-established government control. Subsequently he has been able to carry out an impressive array of programs promoting literacy, job training, land reform, subsidised food, and small loans. His deals with Cuba have used the nation’s oil wealth to extend health care and import Cuban doctors - provided millions of the people in the Barrios with high quality free healthcare.

That he has also sought use the nations oil wealth to show solidarity with poor communities from Bolivia to Boston, Lima to London should enrage liberal and tory twats (a la Teejay) is hardly suprising because the rotton neo-liberal policies they support are responsible for such mass enpoverishment in the first place.

 

[TeeJay]

...he has been able to carry out an impressive array of programs promoting literacy, job training, land reform, subsidised food, and small loans. His deals with Cuba have used the nation’s oil wealth to extend health care and import Cuban doctors - provided millions of the people in the Barrios with high quality free healthcare...

I can see exactly what the deal is with Cuba - doctors for oil - and this seems to have a direct and clear benefit for Venezeulans: they get well-trained doctors at a lower price than they would pay anywhere else (although even better will be for Venezeulan doctors to be trained up).

I am far from convinced that the London deal offers a good deal for Venezeulans, but am willing to look at the details and be persuaded.

For you to simply support this purely on theoretical grounds and to simply assume, without any evidence, that this deal is good value suggests that your political beliefs are incredibly shallow and you don't really care that much about real life Venezeulans. Since when did you become a fan-boy for highly-paid consultants and western bureacrats, a la Bob Kiley et al? As soon as Chavez says something you automatically support it?

 

[JoePolitix]

A transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich? If you think that objecting to this makes someone a 'cunt' then you are one pathetic joke of a 'leftwinger' or 'progressive' however you look at it.

That's purely your own fuckwitted assertion based on cynicism rather than possession of the facts. All you're doing is repeating Angie Bray's piss weak arguements - which just goes to show that Tories and Liberals are just different cheeks of the same arse.

 

[david dissadent]

I have no time for conservative politicians, but could someone explain to me why Chavez keeps giving out cheap oil to other countries when there is so much grinding poverty, vast slums and crumbling infrastructure in Venezeula?

He is just making political statements or do ordinary Venezeulans get something concrete back in return?

He believes the US is targetting him for regime change. Free oil buys friends.

Also a major part of his project is to try to integrate South American economies to be more interdependant and less depenent on the US.

Those are amoung his goals.

 

[TeeJay]

That's purely your own fuckwitted assertion based on cynicism rather than possession of the facts. All you're doing is repeating Angie Bray's piss weak arguements - which just goes to show that Tories and Liberals are just different cheeks of the same arse.

No sorry, zero points mate.

How about you explain how giving away resources for a bunch of overpaid western consultants to write a load of reports then fuck off again is not a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich?

A handful of GLA bureaucrats and consultants do fact-finding trips, lecturing people and producing reams of paper are not the same as low-cost but highly trained Cuban doctors actually giving treatment to poor people, are they?

 

[Loki]

angie.bray@london.gov.uk

I've only gone and emailed the mad cow.

 

[JoePolitix]

Teejay asked: "How about you explain how giving away resources for a bunch of overpaid western consultants to write a load of reports then fuck off again is not a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich?"

Because the reports of the deal indicate the beneficiaries of the deal on the London end will be poor people who will receive special identity cards, subsidised by Venezuela’s cut price oil, to allow them to share the fare subsidies already available to children and pensioners.

In exchange Caracas will receive expert assistance in the fields of policing, tourism, transport, housing and waste disposal. All of which could improve the quality of living for the urban poor a developing world country. As the details of the deal will not be available for months, its just second guessing to assume the nature of the GLA assistance to Venezuela.

 

[JoePolitix]

This is how some US residents felt about Venezuela's cheap oil deal to poor communities:

"According to New York Daily News, the average Massachusetts resident would save about $180 every three weeks. So, despite the political upheaval surrounding the program, recipients of discounted oil across the Northeast have been pleased.

"[Chávez’s] biggest crime is he's a socialist, but he's not a fascist" Elaine DeRosa, manager of a low-income child-care center in Massachusetts told the AP. "It's going to help a lot of low-income people who the U.S. government isn't talking about."

"Alan Francis, an ironworker, echoed her comments. "It felt like Christmas," he told the AP. "This extra 53 gallons was awesome."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1908

 

[DexterTCN]

The US aided in the attempt to have Chavez overthrown. (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)

Chavez has been making friends everyplace, using the oil to turn the wheels.

Good on him, about time someone stuck up for the South Americans again.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

This is unbelievable - oil prices are set on international markets, not by Venezeula cutting supply.

It is called 'Supply and Demand' a well known feature of capitalism with which I thought you might be familiar. That is exactly how international markets work. They don't set the price in the abstract, they respond to the demand for oil which is expanding and if supply falls the price goes up. Only the suppliers can control supply - it goes with the job.

 

[exosculate]

It is called 'Supply and Demand' a well known feature of capitalism with which I thought you might be familiar. That is exactly how international markets work. They don't set the price in the abstract, they respond to the demand for oil which is expanding and if supply falls the price goes up. Only the suppliers can control supply - it goes with the job.

Sometimes I think Teejay is deliberately taking the piss!

 

[ska invita]

SOme mroe details about how this will work:

It said London would receive an unspecified amount of oil as part of the 1.3m barrels needed to run the buses each year. In return the mayor's aides would promise to "actively and efficiently promote Venezuela's image in the UK" by highlighting the oil deal's benefits for London's poor and by boosting tourism with advertisements on buses.

Caracas, it said, would also benefit from help in running its transport system and in fighting crime, using London's expertise in the use of CCTV, fingerprint technology and neighbourhood policing. Consultants would help with waste disposal, air quality and adult education.

[...]

The memo revealed that the president's initial proposal, to supply heating oil to "young people, schools in working-class areas and the homes of elderly people" was dropped because too many UK authorities would be involved. Officials preferred the bus plan for its simplicity and its ability to help the poor directly. They might receive a "special identity card" to access cut-price bus tickets, thereby sharing the fare subsidies that already apply to children and pensioners.

http://society.guardian.co.uk/localgovt/story/0,,1871226,00.html

 

[exleper]

ive just sent angie an email too...

From: XXXXXXXXXXX
To: angie.bray@london.gov.uk
Subject: Bravo!
Dear Ms Bray,

I am writing in reference to the comment you made regarding Ken Livingstone's decision to buy inexpensive oil from Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan President, for our city's public transport. I felt compelled to applaud your sentiment upon hearing such pertinent words, and felt truly outraged that our Mayor could support such a President. How dare he bypass the Saudis for our city's oil in favour of some filthy working-class latinos? As you and I well know, such lucrative opportunities should be reserved for those of us with a salary, viz, you and I. Indeed, I have a acquaintance and associate who currently holds a high-ranking position in a major western oil company, and warns me that this kind of move from Livingstone does not bode well for his Christmas bonus this year... It will be, I fear, a case of just the one champagne bottle at the Dorchester this Christmas Eve instead of the usual five.

As a lifelong resident of Chelsea, I can assure you my vote in the next assembly election. I hope that my vote will stand for something in the future; a mayoral decision benefitting the working-class of London and Venezuela? Not in my name!

Sincerely yours,

xxxxxxxxxx

i realise that was just rambling bollocks, but its 3am now and im bored. kept me interested for 10mins

 

[TeeJay]

It is called 'Supply and Demand' a well known feature of capitalism with which I thought you might be familiar. That is exactly how international markets work. They don't set the price in the abstract, they respond to the demand for oil which is expanding and if supply falls the price goes up. Only the suppliers can control supply - it goes with the job.

For the suppliers to make oil prices rise more of them than just Venezeula would have to withhold supply - it would have to be coordinated action across OPEC for example.

I was disputing that unilateral action by Chavez would make oil prices rise in a way that would mean Venezeula got more money. In fact if he unilaterally withheld his country's oil it would simply end up with *less* money.

 

[TeeJay]

...edit...

 

[TeeJay]

Sometimes I think Teejay is deliberately taking the piss!

So you think that unilateral Venezulan actions have been raising the global oil price?

If so, then it would be you that is taking the piss.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

This move has pissed off alot of the right people it seems, alright by me.

 

[bluestreak]

This move has pissed off alot of the right people it seems, alright by me.

innit. on a action like this you got to look at the people who get annoyed by it. foam-mouthed tories? gotta be doing something right.

 

[TeeJay]

This move has pissed off alot of the right people it seems, alright by me.

Wow, a great new political ideology: "trollism".

 

[JoePolitix]

For the suppliers to make oil prices rise more of them than just Venezeula would have to withhold supply - it would have to be coordinated action across OPEC for example.

I was disputing that unilateral action by Chavez would make oil prices rise in a way that would mean Venezeula got more money. In fact if he unilaterally withheld his country's oil it would simply end up with *less* money.

Given that Venezuela is the USA's cheapest and most convenient supplier of oil, exporting around 1.5 million barrels a day, I think its fairly safe to say that the unilateral action by Venezuela cutting its supply off would be enough to bump up the price of oil substantially. In an interview with Jon Snow, Chavez claimed such an act would bump up the price of oil to 100 a barrel, though I couldn't possibly assess whether thats accurate.

But yes in truth Chavez isn't in the position to cut the oil given that Venezuela needs the cash and the US is its biggest buyer and provider of its most cost effective oil refineries.

 

[JoePolitix]

Wow, a great new political ideology: "trollism".

I can see why you'd be pissed off that you're in a political bloc with reactionaires.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Wow, a great new political ideology: "trollism".

You know I used to have a lot respect for you but it seems more and more you're just a pedantic wanker with nothing better to do with his time than emulate lock+light.

 

[TeeJay]

I can see why you'd be pissed off that you're in a political bloc with reactionaires.

I'm not in a 'political bloc'

Seems like you are so sectarian that anyone asking critical questions gets labelled as a 'reactionary'. Your probable next action if you had the power would be to march them to a labour camp, wouldn't it?

 

[TeeJay]

You know I used to have a lot respect for you but it seems more and more you're just a pedantic wanker with nothing better to do with his time than emulate lock+light.

I'm trying to remember if I ever had any respect for your political views...

...in the meantime, I might as well ask what this post contributes to the thread, and how it is relevant to "oil for bullshit" deal being proposed.

 

[JoePolitix]

I'm not in a 'political bloc'

Seems like you are so sectarian that anyone asking critical questions gets labelled as a 'reactionary'. Your probable next action if you had the power would be to march them to a labour camp, wouldn't it?

Oh please, spare me your whining. No ones getting sent to any labour camps. If you can't bear to have your political standpoint harshly criticised without having a wee hissyfit then maybe the P & P section isn't for you.

Theres a thread on mini chedders in the suburban section at the moment, maybe that would be more suited to a sensitive soul like yourself?