Keith Moon Exposed As Crap Shocker

[phildwyer]

Wrong again - Albert Grossman was Dylan's manager. In my haste I misremembered the name when I was looking for Albert Goldman.

In your rage, you mean. In your ırratıonal fury you provıde the perfect ıllustratıon of emotıonal over-ınvestment ın the pop culture you consume.

As for "racist"? You're floundering, but keep at it - it's quite amusing.

Well you do seem very anxıous to mınımıze the Afro-Amerıcan sources of Elvıs's musıc and persona. Whıch ıs foolısh, for he really loses nothıng by the acknowledgement of hıs debts.

 

[past caring]

In your rage, you mean. In your ırratıonal fury you provıde the perfect ıllustratıon of emotıonal over-ınvestment ın the pop culture you consume.

Stick to the ouji boards and incense, phil, 'cos you're shit at the cod-psychology.

Well you do seem very anxıous to mınımıze the Afro-Amerıcan sources of Elvıs's musıc and persona. Whıch ıs foolısh, for he really loses nothıng by the acknowledgement of hıs debts.

No - I've not sought to deny the black american influence on Elvis, nor the black american influence on rock n' roll. What I did object to was this....

There ıs of course a school of thought that holds Rock musıc to be whıte by defınıtıon, sınce ıt essentıally consısts of the whıte approprıatıon of Afro-Amerıcan culture.

Perhaps that ıs a matter best left to another thread however.

....because of its lazy acceptance of the simplistic narrative of theft when the real story is much more complex and crucially tells a story of acknowledged borrowing, influence, and respect which, when it is left out of the story, only benefits racists because it denies the long history of interaction between black and white popular music in america.

And that history didn't start with rock n' roll. Listen to white Appalachian gospel from the 1920s and black gospel from the Deep South from the same period - much of the time it's difficult to tell the race of those singing.

Listen to the man who rode 40 miles on the family horse in 1925 to hear Bessie Smith sing - and then listen to the music he made 15 years later. Some of Wills' stuff, you tune out his singing and imagine it's Billie Holliday because the musical similarities are so striking.....

 

[spawnofsatan]

They most certaınly are based on Afro-Amerıcan musıc. All rock ıs--the early stuff quıte blatantly so. Watchıng clıps of Elvıs from the 50s ıt looks lıke racıal drag.

Rock and roll is different to Rock though Phil.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Past Caring is right - rock 'n' roll was born out of the melting pot of country, folk, gospel (which is itself a marriage of slave songs and european hymns) , blues, bluegrass and hillbilly in the american south. All these styles borrowed from each other. Elvis was from the delta region and grew up emmersed in this musical breeding ground. It was as much his music as it was leadbellies or the carter families or Chuck Berry's. What unifies it is not race, but class - it being the music(s) of the poor, the desperate, the downtrodden and the marginalised.

For an exmple of this cross ferterlisation check out 'St James Infirmary' - made famous as a Jazz Blues standard by Louis Armstrong. Its originally an English Folk song about St James' Infirmary in London - so was Satchmo 'Stealing' Poor White folks music? Was he fuck.

The glory of popular Music has no boundries or strict lines between its different strands - thats for purest nobbers

Anyway - fascinating subject that deserves a thread of its own.

 

[phildwyer]

All the stuff about cross-fertılızatıon ıs true enough. But ıt's also true that the basıc reason for the explosıve ımpact of rock'n'roll was that ıt was whıte people sıngıng black musıc. Thıs made black musıc avaılable to whıte people for the fırst tıme, sınce most Amerıcan whıte people sımply dıdn't hear black musıc made by black people.

In fact they dıdn't start buyıng black musıc by black people untıl the 90s. Even today most workıng-class whıte Amerıcans couldn't tell you much abut James Brown or Sly Stone.

It also ıncreased the outrage wıth whıch the musıc was greeted. Southern conservatıves were perfectly open about theır vıew of rock as an ınfıltratıon of whıte culture by black. Anyway, perhaps best left for another thread as you say...

 

[phildwyer]

....because of its lazy acceptance of the simplistic narrative of theft when the real story is much more complex and crucially tells a story of acknowledged borrowing, influence, and respect which, when it is left out of the story, only benefits racists because it denies the long history of interaction between black and white popular music in america.

I get the feelıng that you have an unrealıstıcally rosy vıew of race relatıons ın the USA. The kınd of ınteractıon you suppose to have been wıdespread was ın realıty lımıted to the extreme avant-garde and the lumpenproletarıat. Even today the USA remaıns culturally segregated to an extent that wıll surprıze Europeans.

 

[past caring]

I get the feelıng that you have an unrealıstıcally rosy vıew of race relatıons ın the USA.

Hardly.

The kınd of ınteractıon you suppose to have been wıdespread was ın realıty lımıted to the extreme avant-garde and the lumpenproletarıat.

The point being that it is, so often (and with hindsight) the avant-garde that has turned out to have lasting value and influence.

Even today the USA remaıns culturally segregated to an extent that wıll surprıze Europeans.

Precisely the reason why people should know who Rufus Payne was - the real history of popular music shows that segregation to be neither a natural fact nor inevitable.

 

[editor]

to an extent that wıll surprıze Europeans

No more than your curious spelling, I expect.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Past Caring is right - rock 'n' roll was born out of the melting pot of country, folk, gospel (which is itself a marriage of slave songs and european hymns) , blues, bluegrass and hillbilly in the american south. All these styles borrowed from each other. Elvis was from the delta region and grew up emmersed in this musical breeding ground. It was as much his music as it was leadbellies or the carter families or Chuck Berry's. What unifies it is not race, but class - it being the music(s) of the poor, the desperate, the downtrodden and the marginalised.

For an exmple of this cross ferterlisation check out 'St James Infirmary' - made famous as a Jazz Blues standard by Louis Armstrong. Its originally an English Folk song about St James' Infirmary in London - so was Satchmo 'Stealing' Poor White folks music? Was he fuck.

The glory of popular Music has no boundries or strict lines between its different strands - thats for purest nobbers

Anyway - fascinating subject that deserves a thread of its own.

This post makes me happy.

 

[editor]

Past Caring is right - rock 'n' roll was born out of the melting pot of country, folk, gospel (which is itself a marriage of slave songs and european hymns) , blues, bluegrass and hillbilly in the american south. All these styles borrowed from each other. Elvis was from the delta region and grew up emmersed in this musical breeding ground. It was as much his music as it was leadbellies or the carter families or Chuck Berry's. What unifies it is not race, but class - it being the music(s) of the poor, the desperate, the downtrodden and the marginalised.

For an exmple of this cross ferterlisation check out 'St James Infirmary' - made famous as a Jazz Blues standard by Louis Armstrong. Its originally an English Folk song about St James' Infirmary in London - so was Satchmo 'Stealing' Poor White folks music? Was he fuck.

The glory of popular Music has no boundries or strict lines between its different strands - thats for purest nobbers

Anyway - fascinating subject that deserves a thread of its own.

Rarely has the lack of dwyer's understanding about music been exposed so efficiently as in this well-informed post.

Here's some more about St. James Infirmary Blues:

"St. James Infirmary Blues" is based on an 18th century traditional English folk song called "The Unfortunate Rake" (also known as "The Unfortunate Lad" or "The Young Man Cut Down in His Prime"). There are numerous versions of the song throughout the English-speaking world. It also evolved into other American standards such as "The Streets of Laredo".

"The Unfortunate Rake" is about a sailor who uses his money on prostitutes, and then dies of a venereal disease. Different versions of the song expand on this theme, variations typically feature a narrator telling the story of a youth "cut down in his prime" (occasionally "her prime") as a result of some morally questionable actions. For example, when the song moved to America, gambling and alcohol became common causes of the youth’s death.

The title is derived from St. James Hospital in London, a religious foundation for the treatment of leprosy. It was closed in 1532 when Henry VIII acquired the land to build St. James Palace.

The song was first collected in England in its version as "The Unfortunate Rake" by Henry Hammond by a Mr. William Cutis at Lyme Regis, Dorset in March 1906...

Notable performers of this song include Cab Calloway, James Booker, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, Kermit Ruffins, King Oliver, Artie Shaw, Big Mama Thornton, Jack Teagarden, Wingy Manone, Billie Holiday, Cassandra Wilson, Stan Kenton, Lou Rawls, Bobby Bland, Ramblin' Jack Elliott, Doc Watson, Dave Van Ronk, "Spider" John Koerner, Janis Joplin, The Doors, Paul Butterfield, The Animals, and more recently The White Stripes, The Devil Makes Three, the Stray Cats, the Tarbox Ramblers, Snooks Eaglin, Hugh Laurie, Isobel Campbell and Mark Lanegan, and Tom Jones with Jools Holland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James_Infirmary_Blues

 

[past caring]

 

[phildwyer]

No more than your curious spelling, I expect.

Well I suppose that's better than admıttıng you were wrong. But ın thıs case ıt does not work. My spellıng was entırely correct.

 

[phildwyer]

The point being that it is, so often (and with hindsight) the avant-garde that has turned out to have lasting value and influence.

The avant garde does have a tendency to be ahead of ıts tıme.

 

[editor]

Well I suppose that's better than admıttıng you were wrong. But ın thıs case ıt does not work. My spellıng was entırely correct.

It's the self-pwnage that just keeps on giving! Still loving the way Kaka Tim served up your arse on a plate, too.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Little known Who instrumental featuring the overrated keith moon being not as good as Dwyer.

 

[Dr. Furface]

Yeah shit

 

[editor]

Yeah! Phil is so much better than Moon*!

(*only in his egotistical, deluded mind)

 

[Kaka Tim]

Ironically I think this thread has actually proved the exact opposite of Phils argument.
It has made me listen again to moons drumming and really made me appreciate jsut how original, imaginative and soulful his playing was. At his best he just didn't lay down a beat, he treated the kit like an orchestra, using it to play off what the other instruments were doing with a natural and intuiative musical understanding. He was not battering the fuck out of the kit - he was creating perfect drama, tension, resolution, excitement at key moments - almost like a one man sympthony orcherstra. All with virtually no musical trainsing other then half a dozen drum lessons when he started. An utter one off, a unique talent and something close to a genius.

Listen especailly to his drumming on the instrumental tracks on Tommy (the original album), 'I can see for miles' or on 'wont get fooled again' for prime examples of this.

Now imagine anyone writing a drum score like that, or programming a drum machine to play those parts?

Even Dwyer would struggle to come close.

 

[Kaka Tim]

opps - dp

 

[rorymac]

Ironically maybe Dwyer is way ahead of the game

 

[Kaka Tim]

Only if the game is - 'How to look like a Complete Ignoramus'

 

[rorymac]

Well like I said I'm his mate and I defend my mates ..

Aaaand it would have made for a good one of the editors club nights (imo) to have an open night .. where folks get up and strutt their stuff ?

I wouldn't need to cos I know I'm the bollocks but for other folks ????

 

[editor]

Aaaand it would have made for a good one of the editors club nights (imo) to have an open night .. where folks get up and strutt their stuff ?

No thanks, but feel free to start your own club where anyone can get up and have a go.

 

[rorymac]

 

[rorymac]

I might if I had any kind of inclination to start a 'club' !

 

[editor]

I would if I had any kind of inclination to start a 'club' !

But despite that, you still felt compelled to give me 'advice' as to how I should run a club that you've never set foot in.

 

[rorymac]

I have been to one of them actually .. but I don't think I'm giving you advice .. I just thought it might be a good idea re this thread to have an open night ?

 

[editor]

I have been to one of them actually .. but I don't think I'm giving you advice .. I just thought it might be a good idea re this thread to have an open night ?

Open nights are almost always shit. I never go to them myself, I'm not into any kind of talent competitions and I can't be arsed with the hassle of dealing with people who don't know when it's time to leave the stage. So, that's a 100% definite 'no.'

Which Offline night did you go to?

 

[rorymac]

I went to the one when el jefe was giving an interview to someone .. I don't know which one it was tbh
I get what you mean generally re open nights but I just thought that in the context of this thread it might be a good idea .. if phil was shit he was shit .. there seems to be plenty of musicians on these boards and who knows it could be fun ?

I know I wouldn't turn up unprepared for a 3 minute slot eg !

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Ironically I think this thread has actually proved the exact opposite of Phils argument.
It has made me listen again to moons drumming and really made me appreciate jsut how original, imaginative and soulful his playing was. At his best he just didn't lay down a beat, he treated the kit like an orchestra, using it to play off what the other instruments were doing with a natural and intuiative musical understanding. He was not battering the fuck out of the kit - he was creating perfect drama, tension, resolution, excitement at key moments - almost like a one man sympthony orcherstra. All with virtually no musical trainsing other then half a dozen drum lessons when he started. An utter one off, a unique talent and something close to a genius.

Listen especailly to his drumming on the instrumental tracks on Tommy (the original album), 'I can see for miles' or on 'wont get fooled again' for prime examples of this.

Now imagine anyone writing a drum score like that, or programming a drum machine to play those parts?

Even Dwyer would struggle to come close.

It is "Phil's" argument btw

hth