Keir Starmer's time is up

[andysays]

I think a lot of people have some quite negative prejudices towards farmers. I grew up in a small market town with a cattle market every Friday where the farmers pleading poverty would drive down in their Jags. Somehow, their kids ended up in private schools. They weren't so poor. Tory-voters who didn't give a fuck about much that happened outside their world. I did not like farmers, generally.

However, farmers aren't just any old business-owners. We all have a stake in how they operate and how they manage the land. They are not the enemy. Far from it, they are people we need to somehow form alliances with.

I'd be interested to read why you think we have (or should have) a special stake in how farmers operate and manage their assets which is any different to that we have in any other business.

Or if that's not what you mean, maybe you could re word this post, because that's kind of how it reads ATM.

 

[brogdale]

We shouldn't think of family farmers as the enemy, though. We can't afford to think like that even if we might want to.

Smaller farmers aren't just owners either. They are also workers. This isn't the same situation as sticking up for a factory owner.

As someone from along line of exploited ag labs on both sides of my family, I couldn't agree less.

 

[Griff]

Lived in the country for a while, a bit dull tbf.

 

[burtabraham]

Oh this really is such bollocks. These cunts all have accountants and tax advisors and know exactly how to evade IHT. Come on, have some of you lot never been to the fucking cuntryside?

So the basis of your support for this tax is that you believe people will be able to evade it?

 

[brogdale]

So the basis of your support for this tax is that you believe people will be able to evade it?

The wealthy don't pay tax.

 

[belboid]

the demo looks like a bit of a flop, really. Barely a couple of thousand when it was supposed to be 40k. Maybe lots of actual farmers aren't as bothered.

 

[burtabraham]

The wealthy don't pay tax.

Will the farmers pay this tax? Because that's literally what we're talking about

 

[brogdale]

Will the farmers pay this tax? Because that's literally what we're talking about

Of course they won't, which is why it is so bizarre that such a fuss is being whipped up by the tories about then "losing" 50% of the exemption.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd be interested to read why you think we have (or should have) a special stake in how farmers operate and manage their assets which is any different to that we have in any other business.

We all have a stake in how the land is managed. We all have a stake in the way our food is produced. I would say that this is very different from most other businesses as farmers have a crucial role to play in promoting and maintaining sustainability and biodiversity as well as producing good food that we can afford. It is right that farmers should receive govt help, and it is also right that, in return, farmers should farm in a way that the whole of society needs them to farm. To put it grandly, they are custodians of the land they work.

 

[belboid]

The idea that you begin to tackle the situatonby killing off small independent farms is mental. The argument from some on here - you are either with Reeves, the corporates and the free marketeers or you are for the barbour wearing Clarkson types - isn't a serious one.

I'm glad you now recognise this, when you didnt in post 14637

 

[burtabraham]

Of course they won't, which is why it is so bizarre that such a fuss is being whipped up by the tories about then "losing" 50% of the exemption.

Weird argument.

• "We should implement a tax!"
• "But that particular tax is bad."
• "Yeah but it's ok because people won't pay it."

Err.. ok then

 

[brogdale]

We all have a stake in how the land is managed. We all have a stake in the way our food is produced. I would say that this is very different from most other businesses as farmers have a crucial role to play in promoting and maintaining sustainability and biodiversity as well as producing good food that we can afford. It is right that farmers should receive govt help, and it is also right that, in return, farmers should farm in a way that the whole of society needs them to farm. To put it grandly, they are custodians of the land they work.

Farmers will only do what they are incentivised to do; if they're paid to grow as much as they can (CAP) they'll do that, or if they're paid to look after the fluffy bunnies, they'll do that. The crux is whether the neoliberal state will incentivise the industry in either direction. These "custodians" will do whatever makes them the most, and they've proved that over the decades by their destruction of natural habitats and marginal lands.

 

[brogdale]

Weird argument.

• "We should implement a tax!"
• "But that particular tax is bad."
• "Yeah but it's ok because people won't pay it."

Err.. ok then

Not sure who is articulating those first two points, but I can't see why anyone would think that the rural bourgeoise should naturally be exempt from the tax burden imposed on everybody else? That's what's weird here.

 

[andysays]

We all have a stake in how the land is managed. We all have a stake in the way our food is produced. I would say that this is very different from most other businesses as farmers have a crucial role to play in promoting and maintaining sustainability and biodiversity as well as producing good food that we can afford. It is right that farmers should receive govt help, and it is also right that, in return, farmers should farm in a way that the whole of society needs them to farm. To put it grandly, they are custodians of the land they work.

I think that's a very naive and even romantic view.

I preferred your previous paragraph, which is far closer to the reality.

I grew up in a small market town with a cattle market every Friday where the farmers pleading poverty would drive down in their Jags. Somehow, their kids ended up in private schools. They weren't so poor. Tory-voters who didn't give a fuck about much that happened outside their world. I did not like farmers, generally.

 

[brogdale]

The heroic custodians of our land preparing to protest...

 

[burtabraham]

Not sure who is articulating those first two points,

"We should implement a tax!" - um.. you?
"But that particular tax is bad" - everyone arguing against it?

What on earth are you on about?

but I can't see why anyone would think that the rural bourgeoise should naturally be exempt from the tax burden imposed on everybody else? That's what's weird here.

Because farm land isn't a luxury good that can just be passed around without a wider impact on the rest of us. If a family has to sell their home to pay IHT then they sell up, get some cash, pay off the tax, downsize and go on holiday. If a farmer has to do this, the generational knowledge the farmers gets either wiped out, else they sell to a big corporation and become tenant farmers on a megafarm. Or also possible, the land gets used for windmills and we have to import more food, pushing up food prices.

 

[brogdale]

If a farmer has to do this (be subject to half the IHT everyone else is), the generational knowledge the farmers gets either wiped out, else they sell to a big corporation and become tenant farmers on a megafarm.

Someone's taken the farming Kool-Aid.

 

[burtabraham]

The heroic custodians of our land preparing to protest...

View attachment 451679

They look like nice people. What's the issue?

 

[burtabraham]

Someone's taken the farming Kool-Aid.

 

[brogdale]

Even the BBC can't back up the tory spin:

 

[brogdale]

They look like nice people. What's the issue?

Yeah, JCB...nice people.

 

[burtabraham]

Yeah, JCB...nice people.

Who hurt you?

 

[zahir]

Even the BBC can't back up the tory spin:

Again the reporting is incorrect because it isn't taking account of business property relief.

 

[ID47]

Deleted

 

[ID47]

 

[burtabraham]

View attachment 451685

It's literally this, isn't it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think that's a very naive and even romantic view.

I preferred your previous paragraph, which is far closer to the reality.

It's naive to pretend that farmers aren't custodians of the land. Doesn't make them nice people. Doesn't mean they do the right thing necessarily, which is kind of the point. It does mean that we all have a stake in what they do.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Even the BBC can't back up the tory spin:

You mean the BBC has unthinkingly regurgitated today's Treasury spin (which is again deliberately misleading and presents only one effect of the Tax).

Meanwhile, the Green's are correctly calling for a Wealth Tax as the most effective way to raise money, support the sector, target those who buy land to avoid tax and target the rich:

Farmers are feeling abandoned. They have suffered badly from Brexit, both via detrimental trade conditions and reduced subsidies. And tax breaks for agricultural land have inflated land values, making it harder for both new entrants and existing farmers.
It is right to clamp down on those who buy farmland to avoid tax and the Green party strongly supports wealth taxes.
But we also need the government to take action to ensure that hard working farmers can earn a decent income. In particular, in the face of our climate and nature crises, we need subsidies to focus on encouraging farmers to shift to nature-friendly farming. This will protect our food security and support the rural economy while allowing wildlife to recover.

As do Greenpeace:

Greenpeace urges ministers to protect farmers, using revenue from higher taxes on supermarkets and agribusiness​

Greenpeace UK is also supporting the farmers. Its head of politics, Ami McCarthy, released this statement about today’s protests.

Farmers have a vital job to do in growing good-quality food and looking after the countryside, but that job is getting harder. Extreme weather, competition from industrial farms and supermarkets denying them a fair price for their food - all this is putting farmers’ livelihoods under huge strain. They have reasons to be angry.
So whilst it is right that the richest landowners pay their fair share of tax, the government must look again at their wider offer to support UK farmers. Ministers should double the budget for nature-friendly farming and land management to at least £6bn a year, with no delay to the roll-out of new farm payment systems delivering on the principle of public money for public goods.
Money for investment in public services, nature protection and action on climate change is urgently needed. Supermarkets and industrial farming corporations have been making huge profits, while driving down standards, damaging the environment and impacting our health. The government could usefully look at the profits from these sectors as it seeks further ways of raising much-needed revenue.

 

[planetgeli]

The idea we should form alliances with farmers ('somehow' 'I don't know how') is laughable on so many levels. As is the idea they are some sort of noble custodians of the land. Empty rhetoric divorced from reality.

NoFarmersNoFood plans to be a united campaign. That will be no problem. They are all right-wing. Business backs them. They also claim to be non-partisan, which is kinda funny. Laughable.

NoFarmersNoFood sounds more like a threat than a logical consequence of asking some of them, maybe, to pay a bit of tax sometime down the line.

And where have you all been the last decade when dairy farming has been on it's knees? Happily paying 45p for a pint of milk, that's where.

 

[ska invita]

Interesting conversation here about the rights and wrongs of this...Im very much