Keir Starmer's time is up

[belboid]

It's not an either or thing, we could make farmers pay inheritance tax, as they did for a hundred years until Thatcher let them off it AND we can have a wealth tax. Not that complicated.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The idea we should form alliances with farmers ('somehow' 'I don't know how') is laughable on so many levels. As is the idea they are some sort of noble custodians of the land. Empty rhetoric divorced from reality.

That's a caricature. They're custodians of the land whether we like it or not. And we need them to do the right things.

 

[belboid]

That's a caricature. They're custodians of the land whether we like it or not. And we need them to do the right things.

Or we could just nationalise land, put the mega farmers out of business and create decent working environments - and decent pay - for the majority of current farm owners.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

NoFarmersNoFood plans to be a united campaign. That will be no problem. They are all right-wing. Business backs them. They also claim to be non-partisan, which is kinda funny. Laughable.

NoFarmersNoFood sounds more like a threat than a logical consequence of asking some of them, maybe, to pay a bit of tax sometime down the line.
.

Good line, but it's not true is it? I mean unless you think the Greens and Greenpeace (see above) are right wing. It also assumes that the free marker impulse so eloquently expressed by McTernan and which guides Treasury orthodoxy is somehow 'left wing'.

I'd also be interested in the evidence for the claim of 'business' support for independent farmers. Do you mean in the way a rope supports a hanged man?

 

[brogdale]

You mean the BBC has unthinkingly regurgitated today's Treasury spin (which is again deliberately misleading and presents only one effect of the Tax).

Meanwhile, the Green's are correctly calling for a Wealth Tax as the most effective way to raise money, support the sector, target those who buy land to avoid tax and target the rich:



As do Greenpeace:

Greenpeace urges ministers to protect farmers, using revenue from higher taxes on supermarkets and agribusiness​

Greenpeace UK is also supporting the farmers. Its head of politics, Ami McCarthy, released this statement about today’s protests.

The left party of capital propose a slight tweak of a wealth transfer tax exemption and you pile all in with those squealing about the move? i thought that the left was in favour of a transfer of the tax burden from labour to wealth?

 

[Chz]

There's a frequent misunderstanding that Green policies are somehow socialist. The Greens may not be particularly right wing, but they most certainly are not left wing. A casual reading of their 2024 election manifesto would confirm that.

 

[belboid]

Good line, but it's not true is it? I mean unless you think the Greens and Greenpeace (see above) are right wing. It also assumes that the free marker impulse so eloquently expressed by McTernan and which guides Treasury orthodoxy is somehow 'left wing'.

I'd also be interested in the evidence for the claim of 'business' support for independent farmers. Do you mean in the way a rope supports a hanged man?

the Greens are all over the shop, as you would expect and as we have commented on at great length.

The Greenpeace bit you quote does not oppose the change, it just says we need to prioritise other things (as well as??). And thats right.

The next line is just false, and the last line silly. It refers to a specific campaign group, not 'independent farmers'

 

[brogdale]

Just heard Clarkson whining on the radio; a real cunts' cunt if ever there was one.

 

[burtabraham]

Interesting conversation here about the rights and wrongs of this...Im very much

£5.70 for three pints of lager though! I miss those days

 

[brogdale]

£5.70 for three pints of lager though! I miss those days

Yeah, but on the upside you should see the cars that hop and barley farmers drive, not to mention the bastard tory brewers.

 

[brogdale]

I don't think I've ever met or spoken to a farmer.

I've certainly never spoken to a poor one.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

There's a frequent misunderstanding that Green policies are somehow socialist. The Greens may not be particularly right wing, but they most certainly are not left wing. A casual reading of their 2024 election manifesto would confirm that.

Yeah, except I didn’t say that. I said they weren’t right wing. Unlike say, Rachel Reeves, who is right wing.

 

[brogdale]

Who hurt you?

You're not aware?

 

[brogdale]

More of those "custodians"...

 

[brogdale]

And don't forget that if any of these fuckers are actually farmers, the work on their farm will invariably be being done by exploited, gangmastered labour that have to pay the cunts rent to stay in their damp caravans.

 

[Griff]

More of those "custodians"...

View attachment 451696

Stop it!

You're now making me wish for McFarms.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And don't forget that if any of these fuckers are actually farmers, the work on their farm will invariably be being done by exploited, gangmastered labour that have to pay the cunts rent to stay in their damp caravans.

Is that true? What percentage of farmers don't really do their own farm work?

Genuine question. IME, while they may well employ others and pay them very badly, most also work hard themselves.

 

[DotCommunist]

they'd still be selling us infected spinal column in a bap if they could get away with it

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Is that true? What percentage of farmers don't really do their own farm work?

Genuine question. IME, while they may well employ others and pay them very badly, most also work hard themselves.

No. According to the government, 55% of workers are family members (with family members 3 times more likely to work on smaller holdings).

Average number of employees is 2.9 people per farm.

Agricultural facts: Summary

www.gov.uk

Not sure gangmasters operate at that scale and are more likely to be active on the larger corporate/other enterprises.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We do need to distinguish here between the majority of farmers, who are relatively small holders, and the minority who run the megafarms and are very much part of all kinds of problems.

Too easy to descend into caricature. A lot of farmers struggle to get by. It's possible to acknowledge that while also not turning them into saints.

 

[brogdale]

Is that true? What percentage of farmers don't really do their own farm work?

Genuine question. IME, while they may well employ others and pay them very badly, most also work hard themselves.

I really don't know, and I suspect it varies regionally by farming type. But, from what I know of East Kent arable farmers, they nearly all have compounds of caravans on site for the (exploited) foreign workforce and spend most of their time in offices working on their multiple limited companies )often one for each family member) to separate their asset holdings into the most tax efficient form.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I really don't know, and I suspect it varies regionally by farming type. But, from what I know of East Kent arable farmers, they nearly all have compounds of caravans on site for the (exploited) foreign workforce and spend most of their time in offices working on their multiple limited companies )often one for each family member) to separate their asset holdings into the most tax efficient form.

Ok. I think it does vary a lot depending on where you are. Rural Wales, where I grew up, is not like that at all.

 

[brogdale]

Ok. I think it does vary a lot depending on where you are. Rural Wales, where I grew up, is not like that at all.

I accept that may be the case, but I bet those red-faced old buffers you saw at the auctioneer's pens were and are a lot more tax savvy than you realise.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I accept that may be the case, but I bet those red-faced old buffers you saw at the auctioneer's pens were and are a lot more tax savvy than you realise.

I don't doubt that. I also don't doubt that they were up at dawn every day milking the cows.

 

[burtabraham]

I really don't know, and I suspect it varies regionally by farming type. But, from what I know of East Kent arable farmers, they nearly all have compounds of caravans on site for the (exploited) foreign workforce and spend most of their time in offices working on their multiple limited companies )often one for each family member) to separate their asset holdings into the most tax efficient form.

Will this proposed tax increase or decrease the prevalance these practices?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Is that true? What percentage of farmers don't really do their own farm work?

Genuine question. IME, while they may well employ others and pay them very badly, most also work hard themselves.

It'll be true of fruit and veg production - not of arable farms. Not that they wouldn't but they don't have a need for it, it's the massive machinery pulling the weight.

 

[brogdale]

More of those everyday country folk..

 

[burtabraham]

More of those everyday country folk..

View attachment 451704

Is half your argument really just "look at their faces"?

 

[belboid]

Depends on what they're producing, but if it is dependent on human labour for harvesting there will be very significant, albeit brief, use of overseas labour - who wouldn't necessarily go down as employees.

 

[brogdale]

It'll be true of fruit and veg production - not of arable farms. Not that they wouldn't but they don't have a need for it, it's the massive machinery pulling the weight.

Technically still arable, but I take the point about the grain farmers not relying the gang mastered labour.