splonkydoo
Well-Known Member
Stop the Tories by....eh...yes.., great idea! by becoming them of course!
Keir Starmer's time is up
- Thread starter agricola
- Start date
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
And yet when such a history was pointed out by some the response was that people were being unduly critical of the LP, that the LP was the best means to effect socialism, with a load of old clichés about revolutions thrown about.
If the history of the LP meant that such a sell out was inevitable then why were people (on here and wider) insisting that the LP was a party that could bring about democratic socialism? I mean sure there's no point in people just engaging in some sort of performative mea culpa, but some sort of joint up thinking would be good. And if Starmer is so shit, if it the course taken was (pretty much) inevitable then what next?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I can offer 3 suggestions on what comes next:
1.Parts of the corbynite hinterland will make their peace with the reality staring them in the face. Either for career reasons, or just because their political footings were as deep as a grain of sand in the first place. We can expect this group to become engaged in demanding further disparity correction under neo-liberalism, deepened commitment to identity causes and long thought pieces providing left language cover for the accommodation that is being made.
intersecting with the above group a larger group is likely to become engaged in a 1980’s CPLD style tussle for internal control over parts of the Party. Starmer will be able to win praise from the commentariat for periodic crackdowns on this grouping.
2. A significant segment will simply drift away from the LP or political activity entirely. At best some will become involved in other activity in a similar manner to the 1980’s.
3. After December and the defeat there was a consensus that there would be no shortcuts and that hard work was needed to win back working class towns lost to the tories. There was an acceptance that the collective institutions that once made social democratic politics viable and which created the conditions for it would need to be rebuilt. My tentative final suggestion is that if this is going to happen it will need to happen outside of labour.
mauvais
on reddit or something
The difficulty with predicting anything is there are huge wildcards waiting to play out. The country is in a huge mess already but between recession, Covid consequences, Brexit and whatever else we're all going to feel it very much more acutely over time, and experience it more as permanence rather than a temporary emergency that can be tolerated for a time. I think it's going to be severe enough that it's unlikely to take a full election cycle to come to a head, personally, but who knows. At that point it may mostly depend how much people want rid of the Tories (who may present a new leader) in favour of the stereotypical idea of Labour - public services by way of being loose with money. That's distinct from what happened to Corbyn. Despite everything, as we see in current polling, I'm by no means sure it reflects conditions where Labour can automatically win.
On that note I don't think Starmer himself has what it takes to win, I don't mean on a left basis but generally. This is hot off the schools disaster and maybe next time around he will show us something else, but so far we've seen nothing of values or ideas, and he's had plenty of time with no real obstacles. If he wins it will be because of what his opponents have done wrong, not what he has done right. At the moment his support seems to come from people who either know nothing about him, or people who support Labour and haven't been disenfranchised by prior episodes, both of whom use him as a canvas to project either their own or some third party's ideas - "what he means is..." - but this is a dangerous game for him and it won't hold up for very long.
More pertinently on the evidence offered so far I don't think he can offer anything beyond a mild, managerial differentiation from the government. It's extremely unlikely he's going to move to embracing left ideas or indeed anyone's ideology. So I think all things combined, Starmerism is probably doomed, though I wouldn't put any money on it. Then the dice will be rolled again. That's very unlikely to produce anything like Corbynism because that was only permitted by mistake, and although incompetence reigns, the lesson must surely have been learnt. It's most likely to be a new face on the same shit. This is all pretty much an establishment train on rails with just a few branching possibilities and none of it presents any engagement opportunities for the left. The only mildly more interesting question is whether successive failure and yet another failure of centrism prompts any introspection or forces any change. Hasn't worked so far.
I think the opportunities come from those failures, either some form of movement born out of a lack of representation and some of the shared experiences that are forthcoming - then no doubt we get to talk about immiseration again - or to a much lesser degree what happens when the establishment itself, particularly Labour, fails and has to be replaced with something else. Again there is nothing automatic here either though, not least because the public is increasingly right wing and the easiest capital to be made is probably by the right.
On that note I don't think Starmer himself has what it takes to win, I don't mean on a left basis but generally. This is hot off the schools disaster and maybe next time around he will show us something else, but so far we've seen nothing of values or ideas, and he's had plenty of time with no real obstacles. If he wins it will be because of what his opponents have done wrong, not what he has done right. At the moment his support seems to come from people who either know nothing about him, or people who support Labour and haven't been disenfranchised by prior episodes, both of whom use him as a canvas to project either their own or some third party's ideas - "what he means is..." - but this is a dangerous game for him and it won't hold up for very long.
More pertinently on the evidence offered so far I don't think he can offer anything beyond a mild, managerial differentiation from the government. It's extremely unlikely he's going to move to embracing left ideas or indeed anyone's ideology. So I think all things combined, Starmerism is probably doomed, though I wouldn't put any money on it. Then the dice will be rolled again. That's very unlikely to produce anything like Corbynism because that was only permitted by mistake, and although incompetence reigns, the lesson must surely have been learnt. It's most likely to be a new face on the same shit. This is all pretty much an establishment train on rails with just a few branching possibilities and none of it presents any engagement opportunities for the left. The only mildly more interesting question is whether successive failure and yet another failure of centrism prompts any introspection or forces any change. Hasn't worked so far.
I think the opportunities come from those failures, either some form of movement born out of a lack of representation and some of the shared experiences that are forthcoming - then no doubt we get to talk about immiseration again - or to a much lesser degree what happens when the establishment itself, particularly Labour, fails and has to be replaced with something else. Again there is nothing automatic here either though, not least because the public is increasingly right wing and the easiest capital to be made is probably by the right.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The public is increasingly right wing? Some of your actual evidence pls. And not that dreary election result showing fewer than 30% of people voted tory
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Lol, who said it would bring about democratic socialism? It was only ever a more useful option than sittting on the sidelines stroking beards and wagging fingers.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Well okay you've got Mason, Olin Wright specifically identifying the Corbyn LP as (a major part) of a pathway to socialism, a position that some posters were in a level of agreement with (if the LP is not capable of bringing about democratic socialism then in what way is it a democratic socialist party?). Some (perhaps not you) not merely advocated the LP as a tactic but specifically identified the LP as the main/key vehicle for socialism with an accompanying dismissal of revolutionary socialist tactics.
EDIT: And your reply is actually a good example of the sort of behaviour I'm talking about - the implication that the choices where either joining the LP or "sittting on the sidelines stroking beards and wagging fingers", plenty of people were/are actively involved in class war without being members of the LP
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
I'd go further and say that the involvement of so many activists in "The Corbyn Road to Socialism" meant that a lot of class struggle organising and activities dwindled as many new Corbynites devoted most of their time to "party work" (or party in-struggles) rather than getting on with stuff like, for example, building a viable grassroots campaign against Universal Credit.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
No one gives a fuck about masons view any more. And being a part of something by definition means that that something isn’t sufficient.
And of course being outside the Labour Party doesn’t stop you taking part in class struggle. The point is that being in it doesn’t stop you either.
And of course being outside the Labour Party doesn’t stop you taking part in class struggle. The point is that being in it doesn’t stop you either.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
LP groups did the vast majority of anti UC work round here, and coordinated city wide. One or two monthly meetings and the odd vote didn’t really stop anyone doing anything else.
It could do, of course. But I didn’t particularly see it locally.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Round here, there were Labour Party people involved (mainly from Unite Community). Maybe if you're in the LP you wouldn't see it. Speaking as someone outside the LP, the difference in organising at a local level was really noticeable. Interestingly, when the election was called, the local Unite Community told its members to halt any organising round Universal Credit because they needed all hands to the pumps for election campaigning! Ironically, I live in a part of the country where it would be unimaginable for Labour not to win their seats, no matter how shite.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
And if you’re not in the LP you, similarly, don’t see what advantages there were to being involved there. Like making connections with different groups that hadn’t been drawn into campaigning before. BLM was overwhelmingly non LP led (great) but even there LP people had insights into and connections with areas that would otherwise have been missed.
Maybe it’s different where you are, but either way, having a one size fits all approach, whether in or out, won’t work.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
About Coyle's posts or about what Coyle is complaining about?
(Either way Coyle can do one, the prick).
(Either way Coyle can do one, the prick).
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
A pissed up prick, by the looks of it.
Just speculating about the degree of media pearl-clutching there'd have been had an MP supportive of the previous leadership posted such a tweet.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I know a few people who reluctantly keep a foot in the LP tent. It does come in handy, particularly with anything involving the local authority. Knowing which councillors have which angles and are in which cabals can allow you to apply leverage in constructive ways.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
ska invita
back on the other side
Luckily Corbyn was smashed so we can have that real class war now with full participation
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
This is such bollocks, Coyle slagged Corbyn off at every opportunity possible that I noticed.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
They probably are but Coyle is a right wing cunt so I doubt he is.
But the main thing here is that you’ve got to be blind not to see the class hatred and sneering that led to that tweet . A temporary slip of the veil no doubt, but instructive none the less.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Of course it is; Coyle is a viscous right-wing cunt of the first order.
Of course it is; Coyle is a viscous right-wing cunt of the first order.
Could have done with a much better Labour person than him kicking Simon Hughes out of Parliament!!
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
That's pretty much the only thing that can be said to be in his favourCould have done with a much better Labour person than him kicking Simon Hughes out of Parliament!!
pseudonarcissus
fluttering and dancing
Steel Icarus
we move
Well I'm off out canvassing on the back of that bastard.
It's wonderful. Inspired.
Which bit will be emphasized though?
A new leader (shouts) SHIP! does it for me
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
"Well, it's a new leadership..."
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