Keir Starmer's time is up

[bellaozzydog]

lol get to fuck.

I didn’t think so

 

[platinumsage]

Actually there was all of that. Completely part of the pro-apartheid rhetoric. "Boerehaat"

No, I'm not talking about self-justification, but the ease by which the left could oppose apartheid South Africa without crossing any fine lines into racism. Anyone claiming SA and Israel are directly comparable is wrong, because they're not.

 

[Pickman's model]

My understanding is that Britain's history is closely tied to Israel particularly, and the wider Middle East, in a way it isnt to Colombia or Mexico
Balfour Decleration of 1917 a key starting point, though you could go back to the crusades if you really wanted
Continued Anglo-American warfaring in the middle east throughout the following century
Israel's strong connection with the US brings it into the Anglo-political sphere (somewhat distinct from Latin America)
A well established Palestinian solidarity campaign - chronologically running alongside the Anti-Apartheid movement
A major global political focus on the region, politically and in reporting throughout the second half of the twentieth century, as a flashpoint and cornerstone of middle eastern tensions more generally
...and so on. Im sure there's plenty more that could be said. Balfour Deceleration particularly makes Britain politically responsible for what continues to happen in Israel, IMO.

not to mention being the former colonial power

 

[Treacle Toes]

Maybe because it only seems to be Israel now, and has been for all my adult life.

So you accept it isn't new or particually unusal given historical 'leftist' perspective on other apartheid regimes.

Israel is not the devil. If I were to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world in recent years, and which 'we' are complicit in the damage they do, it would be Saudi Arabia. But there are so many other fucked up things happening in the world too.

Can you lose the silly 'not the devil' stuff? Who has said this on this thread? How is that helping the discussion?
Yes they are lots of fucked up things, yes there is criticism about other places too. My opinion is that the UK's relationship both past and present with Israel, and it's relationship with the US is what keeps it much further front in people's minds and frame of reference. This includes both the historical relationship both places have with Jewish immigration etc and our Jewish communities.

]A slightly different point, but what does it looks like to Israelis do you think that the left just happens to have got obsessed with their country, far more so than any other?

I imagine many Israelis see it for what it is, not 'an obsession with their country', but legitimate challenge & criticism. I say that given how many I've read/seen over the years speaking out on the issues. Other will of course see it differently given they are not speaking out about the human right's abuses and the regime anyway.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Maybe because it only seems to be Israel now, and has been for all my adult life. Israel is not the devil. If I were to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world in recent years, and which 'we' are complicit in the damage they do, it would be Saudi Arabia. But there are so many other fucked up things happening in the world too.

A slightly different point, but what does it looks like to Israelis do you think that the left just happens to have got obsessed with their country, far more so than any other?

But apartheid South Africa didn't have the most damaging effect on the world of any country in the world in its years of existence either, surely? Why is that the measure? Arguments against taking a stance against Israel and in favour of the Palestinians always seem to come down to whatabouttery. Even the Israeli govt does it - What about the non-democracies that surround us? Singling us out is anitsemitism.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, I'm not talking about self-justification, but the ease by which the left could oppose apartheid South Africa without crossing any fine lines into racism. Anyone claiming SA and Israel are directly comparable is wrong, because they're not.

and they're not because...

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'm going to leave this argument here because I have other things to do and I've probably made enough enemies for the day.

Please stop being so dramatic. Enemies? This has been one of the most civil, measured conversations I have seen on Urban in a long time in the politics forum TBH.

 

[Wilf]

Do you know how examples work?

To me, the more interesting question is why can't Israel be used as an example. Why, if say you are wanting to give an illustration of police violence, it can't just be in the bag of examples along with the Russian cops, the Chinese cops etc?

 

[belboid]

No, I'm not talking about self-justification, but the ease by which the left could oppose apartheid South Africa without crossing any fine lines into racism. Anyone claiming SA and Israel are directly comparable is wrong, because they're not.

Well, they still are, it just means they are not exact copies. But of course they are comparable. If you like, Israel is more like Marcus Garvey's Back to Africa call, understandable but completely wrong.

 

[Pickman's model]

The British left shows no interest in the activities of the state in India, literally created by the British and still behaving as a violent colonial entity in tribal areas. There should be a much closer tie, historically, considering the hundreds of years of the Raj.

I'm going to leave this argument here because I have other things to do and I've probably made enough enemies for the day.

er the raj lasted from 1858 to 1947 and refers to rule by the british crown on the indian subcontinent.

given the length of time, some hundreds of years, in which britain had a presence on the indian subcontinent i thought this might be widely known.

 

[platinumsage]

and they're not because...

Well, I feel like I'm going around in circles here but if you want to compare the holocaust with black migrants entering South African cities after WWII as equivalent justifications for maintaining an ethnic state, then I'm not going to stop you.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I know this looks like whataboutery. But Israel is not the devil, that's the point. Absolutely nothing is gained by acting as though it is. It certainly doesn't impact on the behavour of Israel as a state.

It does look like whataboutery because it is especially given you insistence that 'it's not the devil' which no one has said or implied on this thread. It's not the point, it's a exaggeration and pointless.

 

[killer b]

I didn’t think so

dude, if you still need it explaining to you now, there's nothing I can say that'll make you see it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, I feel like I'm going around in circle here but if you want to compare the holocaust with black migrants entering South African cities after WWII as equivalent justifications for maintaining an ethnic state, then I'm not going to stop you.

i feel like i'm knocking my head against a brick wall because it is quite clear that both the ze and asa had much in common, such as the racism on which both were founded.

 

[platinumsage]

i feel like i'm knocking my head against a brick wall because it is quite clear that both the ze and asa had much in common, such as the racism on which both were founded.

There may be things in common, as there are with any two things, but there are differences. And those differences are extremely significant when we're talking about left-wing people being accused of racism.

 

[belboid]

One of the lefts main criticisms of the foundation of Israel was that it would do nothing to stop wider anti-semitism and its establishment would cause an immediate backlash from the surrounding states (that could well then fall into anti-semitism), and it would be used to weaken those states. And they were 100% right.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Good take.

 

[ska invita]

The British left shows no interest in the activities of the state in India, literally created by the British and still behaving as a violent colonial entity in tribal areas. There should be a much closer tie, historically, considering the hundreds of years of the Raj.

I have also noticed a lack of political conversation about the region, not a lot gets published on it, and we have a fairly sizeable population in the UK of people with Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi heritage. Hard to say exactly why that is, these things are complex, and there are likely many factors that could be pointed to.

The other factor re Palestinian rights is this is a big debate in the USA, with many prominent US authors and activists of jewish heritage raising the issues, and because of language and historical cultural links that gives energy to it in the UK.

 

[butchersapron]

I have also noticed a lack of political conversation about the region, not a lot gets published on it, and we have a fairly sizeable population in the UK of people with Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi heritage. Hard to say exactly why that is, these things are complex, and there are likely many factors that could be pointed to.

The other factor re Palestinian rights is this is a big debate in the USA, with many prominent US authors and activists of jewish heritage raising the issues, and because of language and historical cultural links that gives energy to it in the UK.

So we have here an idea that there is an over-emphasis on jews allied with but i don't know why.

I know why.

 

[Knotted]

No, I'm not talking about self-justification, but the ease by which the left could oppose apartheid South Africa without crossing any fine lines into racism. Anyone claiming SA and Israel are directly comparable is wrong, because they're not.

It's easy to support the Palestinian cause without crossing any fine lines into racism as well. Just don't be racist! If somebody wants to argue for the Palestinian right of return, they don't have to talk about eg. Jewish control of the media. It's not connected, you have to work at hating Jews, it's not a natural state of affairs, it doesn't just flow out of geo-political considerations. The problem with anti-Semitism in Labour was (and surely still is) precisely a problem of a network of activists and that network getting a free pass.

 

[bellaozzydog]

dude, if you still need it explaining to you now, there's nothing I can say that'll make you see it.

good I can disregard your future posts as generalised agenda driven wiffle

 

[killer b]

good I can disregard your future posts as generalised agenda driven wiffle

what do you imagine my agenda is? I'm just really fucked off with this bullshit tbh, and have nothing but derision for people who, after being presented with the receipts week in week out for 5 years still pretend there's nothing there.

There is zero value in me giving you a list of Labour antisemitism incidents because you've already seen them all, and you imagine there's no problem. Even now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are parallels:

1. "White lives matter" - of course they do, but in the context of BLM, it is at best crass and ignorant, at worst a catch phrase chanted by neo-nazis.
2. "Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews" - of course it isn't, but in the context of anti-semitism in the Labour party and anti-semitic conspiraloons all over the place, such criticism is often crass and ignorant at best, at worst, a dog whistle to neo-nazis.

Anyone in politics should be able to understand those nuances. Unfortunately the conservatives are full of people who don't get 1 and the labour party is full of people who don't get 2.

I don't think the parallels there are so useful. Anyone making the 'white lives matter too' point has clearly utterly missed the point of BLM, which itself of course has a 'too' implied at the end. There is no need for anyone to champion 'white rights'.

Your second point appears to be saying that one should abandon the Palestinian cause because it is also championed by racists. If anything I think I would argue the opposite - the cause is clearly just and that produces an imperative not to allow it to be abandoned to racists. How could any good ever come from abandoning that cause when criticism of Israel is very far from 'crass and ignorant at best'. There is a need for someone to champion the rights of Palestinians. How much better is it when that cause is championed in a non-racist, non-ignorant way?

 

[Serge Forward]

I've always thought it is more to do with anti-aparthied campaigns/movements being very much apart of 'leftist' traditions . In living memory those against SA apartheid for example. Boycotts, protests, lobbying, the lot. Why isn't that an okay stance to take on Israel?

In itself, if boycotts of nation states is your thing, then no problem.

The main issue seems to me to be this:

"Look at what's happening to the Uighurs!"
"Yeah, but Israel"
"Black Lives Matter!
"Israel though, innit."
"Smash capitalism!"
"Definitely Isreal."
Etc, etc....

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is an issue the other way, though. I'd put the likes of the Jewish Chronicle in this category, whereby identifying dodgy or incorrect attacks on Israel trumps any other consideration. The JC has had very little to say about Johnson's racism, for instance. They don't seem to mind that.

 

[bimble]

If you like, Israel is more like Marcus Garvey's Back to Africa call, understandable but completely wrong.

Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century. I’d have been on your side of that conversation but we missed it.

 

[Serge Forward]

Yeah but the Jewish Cronicle is unhinged right wing drivel so you'd sort of expect that.

 

[Pickman's model]

In itself, if boycotts of nation states is your thing, then no problem.

The main issue seems to me to be this:

"Look at what's happening to the Uighurs!"
"Yeah, but Israel"
"Black Lives Matter!
"Israel though, innit."
"Smash capitalism!"
"Definitely Isreal."
Etc, etc....

Out of curiosity have you ever boycotted a nation state?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century.

Ah but where does it begin and end?

 

[agricola]

Yeah but the Jewish Cronicle is unhinged right wing drivel so you'd sort of expect that.

relaunched unhinged right wing drivel, please