Chancellor Rachel Reeves: Her Time Is Up!

[Puddy_Tat]

The dirty scumbags, theyve put bus fares up by fifty percent. People on the lowest wages who have to catch buses to go to work. I catch four buses a day. two there and two back, thats an extra 80 pounds a month for me. The filthy scumbags. Theyve hit pensioners and now the low paid.

without going in to the specifics of the policy here, but it may be worth looking in to whether getting a weekly / monthly pass of some sort will be worthwhile (these vary - some you can buy once a week on the bus, some you need to go via bus operators' website / apps, a few operators have daily or weekly price capping that works with contactless cards, but there's not many of these yet, partly because the national standard for it is some way off and bus operators don't want to end up buying the equivalent of betamax.)

These didn't have their prices capped as part of this scheme, but many people have found it (or thought it would be) better to get £ 2 single tickets for each journey instead of weekly (or whatever) tickets while it has been on. (although for some journeys - particularly involving 2 buses each way every day - a weekly ticket has still been better value than £ 2 for every single journey.)

If the two buses each way are different operators, it's possible that there may be a multi-operator weekly ticket in your patch, although there aren't many of them. It's something government has been pushing for some time, but the powers to make operators do it are limited (especially outside the metropolitan counties) and the tech to make it all work with contactless cards is something that's been brewing in the background for one heck of a long time and hasn't surfaced yet. i think the target date for it all happening is at least a year ago...

 

[magneze]

These aren't "hard choices", they're idiotic.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

i think the target date for it all happening is at least a year ago...

classic IT governement/big company project timeframe then...
give it 10 years

 

[xenon]

Bus fare rises to £3

England’s bus fare cap will rise from £2 to £3 in 2025, says Starmer

People understand tough decisions are needed to fix public finances, PM insists in pre-budget comments

www.theguardian.com

So are they cutting the subsidies to private bus companies? Otherwise how does this rise go into government coffers. And not say, just to the private bus companies. I could probably google this, correct.

 

[PTK]

So are they cutting the subsidies to private bus companies? Otherwise how does this rise go into government coffers. And not say, just to the private bus companies. I could probably google this, correct.

The state is subidising the bus fares, to keep them down to £2.00 per journey. Starmer has announced that fares will only be kept down to £3.00. The state will therefore pay out less in subusidies to the bus companies.

 

[xenon]

The state is subidising the bus fares, to keep them down to £2.00 per journey. Starmer has announced that fares will only be kept down to £3.00. The state will therefore pay out less in subusidies to the bus companies.

No danger of re-nationalising them of course.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

The state is subidising the bus fares, to keep them down to £2.00 per journey. Starmer has announced that fares will only be kept down to £3.00. The state will therefore pay out less in subusidies to the bus companies.

yes. bus companies are getting money from central government (no involvement from local councils) for this - it was all a bit of a bodge based on bus networks in 2019, so operators who had cut their network since 2019 did quite nicely, operators whose networks had expanded didn't - hence some of them not playing either initially or at all.

it was a hastily bodged together scheme - originally intended for (from memory) 6 months from january 2023. it's been kicked down the line a few times (so as not to be ended at potentially electorally awkward moments) - at one point the plan was the cap would go to 2.50 for 6 months then 3.00

and like most things the tory government did the last few years, it's been paid for with IOU's, and no long term thought - except possibly leaving it as a problem for the next government to sort out.

 

[Petcha]

I dont know if anyone saw Streeting this morning on GMB but he managed to leave Ed Balls slightly speechless when he said he couldn't say anything else about what Reeves was going to announce tomorrow because he 'values his kneecaps'. My vibe is that she's not a very nice lady. But of Thatcher going on here. I mean, Streeting's not great. But if he's physically scared of her, well...

 

[Serene]

I havent seen Labour hit the wealthy yet with anything. We will have to wait for the budget. However, Labour was voted in to help people who need it.

 

[Pickman's model]

These aren't "hard choices", they're idiotic.

They're hard for idiots

 

[teqniq]

Not happening in Manchester where as if by magic the local bus company is publicly controlled:

Andy Burnham issues statement on £2 bus fares as price cap rises across country

Labour leader Kier Starmer has announced the fare cap across England would rise by 50 per cent to £3

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Serene]

Not happening in Manchester where as if by magic the local bus company is publicly controlled:

Andy Burnham issues statement on £2 bus fares as price cap rises across country

Labour leader Kier Starmer has announced the fare cap across England would rise by 50 per cent to £3

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

This is really interesting. So Manchesters Bee Bus isnt private? What does Publicly controlled mean exactly?

 

[teqniq]

This is really interesting. So Manchesters Bee Bus isnt private? What does Publicly controlled mean exactly?

They did another article when this was to be introduced which explains it:

A new era begins for Greater Manchester's buses - with you in the driving seat

"In the old world that we are leaving behind, if you are standing at a bus stop and your bus doesn't turn up or is late, there's just nothing you can do because the private operators have had the run of the road. They have been able to suit themselves. In this new system, the buses have to work...

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Serene]

They did another article when this was to be introduced which explains it:

A new era begins for Greater Manchester's buses - with you in the driving seat

"In the old world that we are leaving behind, if you are standing at a bus stop and your bus doesn't turn up or is late, there's just nothing you can do because the private operators have had the run of the road. They have been able to suit themselves. In this new system, the buses have to work...

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Thank you for the link. I understand that a lot more now. Also, as you say they are able to keep the cap at £2, which shows that a publicly controlled system is a lot better for the public than a privately controlled one!

 

[Puddy_Tat]

This is really interesting. So Manchesters Bee Bus isnt private? What does Publicly controlled mean exactly?

Yes and no.

The buses in Greater Manchester are owned and operated by private sector companies, but it's recently changed to a franchising model, where the routes, service levels and fares are set by whatever the metropolitan county authority is called, operators bid for the franchise.

Similar concept to London, where all the 'red buses' are owned by private sector operators. Those operators still seek to make a profit, although (in theory at least) the competition for each contract stops operators from taking the piss with excessive profits.

In London each route (broadly speaking) is a separate franchise, in Greater Manchester, they have split the area in to chunks and franchised each chunk.

I don't know what incentives the operators in Manchester have - in London, operators don't get anything based on how many passengers they carry (they didn't keep the fares revenue even when there were still some cash fares paid on buses) - operators get the agreed contract price, which has an element that can be varied up or down depending on whether they exceed / meet / fall short of all manner of targets that TFL set (in theory, a contract can be terminated early if the operation is completely crap, but this hasn't happened often.) The downside of this is that the 'customer' is TFL not the actual passengers and this can show at times - like the 'this bus is being held at this stop to even out the service' when you're a couple of stops away from the main stop where most people want to get off.

I don't know what the finances are of the Manchester network, but the London bus network requires a considerable amount of funding from TFL.

The new government is expanding local authorities' powers to introduce bus franchising, but so far have been a bit quiet about the funding to make it happen.

 

[teqniq]

Thank you for the link. I understand that a lot more now. Also, as you say they are able to keep the cap at £2, which shows that a publicly controlled system is a lot better for the public than a privately controlled one!

As do i - i wasn't so sure how it worked and, in fact thought it was publicly owned as well. Then you asked so I searched and found that article.

 

[Serene]

Yes and no.

The buses in Greater Manchester are owned and operated by private sector companies, but it's recently changed to a franchising model, where the routes, service levels and fares are set by whatever the metropolitan county authority is called, operators bid for the franchise.

Similar concept to London, where all the 'red buses' are owned by private sector operators. Those operators still seek to make a profit, although (in theory at least) the competition for each contract stops operators from taking the piss with excessive profits.

In London each route (broadly speaking) is a separate franchise, in Greater Manchester, they have split the area in to chunks and franchised each chunk.

I don't know what incentives the operators in Manchester have - in London, operators don't get anything based on how many passengers they carry (they didn't keep the fares revenue even when there were still some cash fares paid on buses) - operators get the agreed contract price, which has an element that can be varied up or down depending on whether they exceed / meet / fall short of all manner of targets that TFL set (in theory, a contract can be terminated early if the operation is completely crap, but this hasn't happened often.) The downside of this is that the 'customer' is TFL not the actual passengers and this can show at times - like the 'this bus is being held at this stop to even out the service' when you're a couple of stops away from the main stop where most people want to get off.

I don't know what the finances are of the Manchester network, but the London bus network requires a considerable amount of funding from TFL.

The new government is expanding local authorities' powers to introduce bus franchising, but so far have been a bit quiet about the funding to make it happen.

Thank you Puddy Tat for educating me. I now understand how it works. It is very good of you to explain it to me.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I havent seen Labour hit the wealthy yet with anything. We will have to wait for the budget. However, Labour was voted in to help people who need it.

I expect the Budget to tell us that because Starmer and his cabinet are all from working class backgrounds and 'on the side of working people' that they will make the 'tough decision to fill the black hole' by leaving the wealthy completely untouched by the budget.

 

[Serene]

I just saw this online, also which says how many in uk are publicly controlled.

Buses are the most widespread and most commonly used form of public transport in the United Kingdom. In Great Britain, bus transport is owned and governed by private sector companies (subject to government regulation), except in Greater Manchester with the Bee Network and Greater London .

 

[Sue]

I just saw this online, also which says how many in uk are publicly controlled.

Buses are the most widespread and most commonly used form of public transport in the United Kingdom. In Great Britain, bus transport is owned and governed by private sector companies (subject to government regulation), except in Greater Manchester with the Bee Network and Greater London .

And Edinburgh.

Home » Transport for Edinburgh

transportforedinburgh.com

 

[Serene]

And Edinburgh.

Home » Transport for Edinburgh

transportforedinburgh.com

Aah yes, Lothian Buses remains Publicly owned - the major shareholder being the City of Edinburgh Council. Well I can be an expert at work tomorrow if anyone brings this subject up

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Thank you Puddy Tat

- it's what i do for work - i've been either with bus operators (inside and outside london) or doing bus things for local authorities (outside london) for most of the last 30+ years.

quite a few people assume the buses in london are all owned by TFL - there was a brief time round the late 80s / early 90s where private sector bus operators were allowed to have buses in their own colours, but that got ended as it confused people.

Buses are the most widespread and most commonly used form of public transport in the United Kingdom. In Great Britain, bus transport is owned and governed by private sector companies (subject to government regulation), except in Greater Manchester with the Bee Network and Greater London .

yes and no - london and manchester are not 'deregulated' the same as the rest of england / wales are - london never got deregulated, but the buses were privatised and subject to the route franchising system. deregulation of london buses was in the 1992 tory manifesto but they never quite got round to it.

there was a spell in the early 90s when sheffield city centre was pretty much gridlocked with too many buses chasing passengers (picture, not mine, here) and there is a thought that the politicians didn't fancy the idea of central london ending up like that and chickened out of the idea.

there's an added variant, there's some places where the buses are still owned by local councils (nottingham and reading are probably the biggest in england, there's about a dozen left) - councils were encouraged but not forced to sell off their municipal bus operations in the 80s and on - although legally they are 'arms length' companies owned by the council, and subject to competition on the road, and they would probably be forced in to being sold off if they consistently made losses.

i don't know how councils like reading and nottingham will react to the idea of franchising - apart from the practical issue in both cases that the urban area on the map is a damn sight bigger than the council boundaries - having a franchise bidding contest could blow their own bus company out of the water.

And Edinburgh.

edinburgh's another one where the council never sold them off - although some of the laws round this are (now) different in scotland, so i'm not quite sure if it's like nottingham / reading, or whether it's closer to the old style municipal bus operation or new style franchising.

the rules round trams are different - although most are franchised out to private sector operators (Croydon Tramlink is operated by First Group, Docklands Light Railway and London Overground trains are also franchised out to private sector operators, but not in the same way as the 'national rail' train franchises where the operators have their own identity visible.)

 

[Sue]

edinburgh's another one where the council never sold them off - although some of the laws round this are (now) different in scotland, so i'm not quite sure if it's like nottingham / reading, or whether it's closer to the old style municipal bus operation or new style franchising.

I suspect it's still an old skool municipal operation -- the Edinburgh buses at least all have the same livery etc unlike in London where you get all sorts of different operators/buses.

 

[Serene]

- it's what i do for work - i've been either with bus operators (inside and outside london) or doing bus things for local authorities (outside london) for most of the last 30+ years.

quite a few people assume the buses in london are all owned by TFL - there was a brief time round the late 80s / early 90s where private sector bus operators were allowed to have buses in their own colours, but that got ended as it confused people.



yes and no - london and manchester are not 'deregulated' the same as the rest of england / wales are - london never got deregulated, but the buses were privatised and subject to the route franchising system. deregulation of london buses was in the 1992 tory manifesto but they never quite got round to it.

there was a spell in the early 90s when sheffield city centre was pretty much gridlocked with too many buses chasing passengers (picture, not mine, here) and there is a thought that the politicians didn't fancy the idea of central london ending up like that and chickened out of the idea.

there's an added variant, there's some places where the buses are still owned by local councils (nottingham and reading are probably the biggest in england, there's about a dozen left) - councils were encouraged but not forced to sell off their municipal bus operations in the 80s and on - although legally they are 'arms length' companies owned by the council, and subject to competition on the road, and they would probably be forced in to being sold off if they consistently made losses.

i don't know how councils like reading and nottingham will react to the idea of franchising - apart from the practical issue in both cases that the urban area on the map is a damn sight bigger than the council boundaries - having a franchise bidding contest could blow their own bus company out of the water.



edinburgh's another one where the council never sold them off - although some of the laws round this are (now) different in scotland, so i'm not quite sure if it's like nottingham / reading, or whether it's closer to the old style municipal bus operation or new style franchising.

the rules round trams are different - although most are franchised out to private sector operators (Croydon Tramlink is operated by First Group, Docklands Light Railway and London Overground trains are also franchised out to private sector operators, but not in the same way as the 'national rail' train franchises where the operators have their own identity visible.)

Thank you, your knowledge is extensive. It is quite complicated, there are a lot of variations reading your post. I shall be humble with my talk of buses at work tomorrow.

 

[Elpenor]

yes. bus companies are getting money from central government (no involvement from local councils) for this - it was all a bit of a bodge based on bus networks in 2019, so operators who had cut their network since 2019 did quite nicely, operators whose networks had expanded didn't - hence some of them not playing either initially or at all.

it was a hastily bodged together scheme - originally intended for (from memory) 6 months from january 2023. it's been kicked down the line a few times (so as not to be ended at potentially electorally awkward moments) - at one point the plan was the cap would go to 2.50 for 6 months then 3.00

and like most things the tory government did the last few years, it's been paid for with IOU's, and no long term thought - except possibly leaving it as a problem for the next government to sort out.

Is it correct that new route registrations are not included under the £2 cap?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Is it correct that new route registrations are not included under the £2 cap?

from the passenger perspective, don't think so. there have been new routes round here after arriva pulled out of the high wycombe patch.

some 'special services' (for example in Reading, for the shuttle to the football ground) and services that aren't open to the general public (some school routes) aren't part of the scheme.

 

[PR1Berske]

Raising the minimum wage is fine and dandy, though when it happens, those of us on Agenda for Change NHS wages will be under it by 40-odd-pence an hour until the inevitable backpay bonanza later in 2025. Make any of it make sense.

 

[Plumdaff]

Cardiff Bus is wholly owned by the council. Not perfect by any means, but much better than the alternative.

 

[Elpenor]

Budget so far seems to be about growth, stopping benefit fraud and 2% productivity savings across all departments (sounds like sacking people; reducing services and cuts)

 

[PTK]

Bus fares up, but fuel duty frozen.