Keir Starmer's time is up

[Knotted]

I think most leftists in the UK would be well advised to SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT ISRAEL except when specifically talking about the Palestinian struggle, and even then think carefully about their language and emphasis. Israel is not the problem in the world.

In general yes, but it is fundamentally healthy to see things in common between eg. BLM and the Palestinian struggle and highlighting links between the American state and Israeli state when they actually exist can be useful. As can learning from one another's plights. Scrapping what maybe a useful conversation just because it harms the Labour Party is not on.

By the way some people on here think that there is no reason to think that the American police have a particular fascination with Israeli policing tactics. Apart from that the state department already have a particular, irrational fascination with Israeli intelligence (they seem to think Israeli analysts are the fount of all wisdom for all things Arab), Israel is a country that has recently faced two uprisings and continues to face attacks on its military and civilians (knife wielding & car attacks) and can apply force with impunity while maintaining a liberal democratic political system roughly similar the US's. Of course they love it.

I don't know what these Israeli training groups teach, and yes it seems unlikely that they teach restraining techniques but I wish people (not you Brainaddict) would stop just guessing that what has been taught is something banal and irrelevant to the George Floyd case. I wish people would stop making the most ungenerous assumptions about Maxine Peake's motivations. Uncalled for, unhelpful and does nothing to combat anti-Semitism. What helps for the latter is to show what the loons are actually saying so we know not to accidentally feed them, which I'm willing to agree Maxine Peake did. So a thankyou to rekil for that.

 

[belboid]

this performance of missing the point is fucking embarrassing belboid. Peake fucked up, RLB fucked up, you need to suck it up.

sorry mister reasonable judge.

Peake made a mistake and corrected it. But her mistake was hardly a 'anti-semitic conspiracy theory.' It's just a minor mistake. Any idiot pretending otherwise is being daft.

 

[killer b]

Funny how the recent history of the Labour Party is crowded with minor mistakes that can be so easily mistaken for antisemitic conspiracy theories.

 

[platinumsage]

sorry mister reasonable judge.

Peake made a mistake and corrected it. But her mistake was hardly a 'anti-semitic conspiracy theory.' It's just a minor mistake. Any idiot pretending otherwise is being daft.

It's not so much about whether Peake made a mistake, it's whether RLB should have identified it as such, and realised it could be seen as being anti-semitic. Something which she still has spectacularly failed to appreciate, even after years of this stuff.

 

[belboid]

only by morons and those blatantly doing so to stir shit. Funny that

 

[platinumsage]

only by morons and those blatantly doing so to stir shit. Funny that

How has blaming accusations of anti-semitism on morons and shit-stirrers worked out for the Labour left exactly?

 

[killer b]

How has blaming accusations of anti-semitism on morons and shit-stirrers worked out for the Labour left exactly?

in a complete and total rout. it's over for them all, and it's belboid's fault.

 

[kebabking]

only by morons and those blatantly doing so to stir shit. Funny that

Actually, I was going to say that such things were only missed by morons and those with rattling closets - or anti-Semitic murals....

Funny that.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not so much about whether Peake made a mistake, it's whether RLB should have identified it as such, and realised it could be seen as being anti-semitic. Something which she still has spectacularly failed to appreciate, even after years of this stuff.

being as the zionists have taught the americans torture techniques in the past it was not beyond the realms of possibility that they might have shared this other technique. but what should have raised eyebrows was the claim of it being shared by some secret service.

 

[belboid]

how has doing anything worked out for the labour left? Daft argument.

Still, facts dont matter now, its all about perception. So lets shut up about apartheid and just ignore it.

 

[platinumsage]

So lets shut up about apartheid and just ignore it.

I'll just quote this from the link bimble posted earlier today:

Making connections between the U.S. and Israel without context can do harm
Highlighting these police exchange programs without enough context or depth can end up harming our movements for justice. Suggesting that Israel is the start or source of American police violence or racism shifts the blame from the United States to Israel. This obscures the fundamental responsibility and nature of the U.S., and harms Black people and Black-led struggle. It also furthers an antisemitic ideology. White supremacists look for any opportunity to glorify and advance American anti-Black racism, and any chance to frame Jews as secretly controlling and manipulating the world. Taking police exchanges out of context provides fodder for those racist and antisemitic tropes.

 

[Struwwelpeter]

There are parallels:

1. "White lives matter" - of course they do, but in the context of BLM, it is at best crass and ignorant, at worst a catch phrase chanted by neo-nazis.
2. "Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews" - of course it isn't, but in the context of anti-semitism in the Labour party and anti-semitic conspiraloons all over the place, such criticism is often crass and ignorant at best, at worst, a dog whistle to neo-nazis.

Anyone in politics should be able to understand those nuances. Unfortunately the conservatives are full of people who don't get 1 and the labour party is full of people who don't get 2.

 

[Knotted]

being as the zionists have taught the americans torture techniques in the past it was not beyond the realms of possibility that they might have shared this other technique. but what should have raised eyebrows was the claim of it being shared by some secret service.

That claim comes from Amnesty International (or rather intelligence services)

But what hasn't received as much attention is where Baltimore police received training on crowd control, use of force and surveillance: Israel's national police, military and intelligence services.

Where Do Many Police Departments Train? In Israel

U.S. law enforcement agencies need partners for effective training to strengthen their identified weak areas. Israel is not such a partner.

www.amnestyusa.org

 

[LDC]

Just been shown a friend's FB feed/timeline/whatever it is, quite depressing; totally full of outright denial, refusing to acknowledge any problem with AS at all in the party, repeatedly using shit arguments to defend Peake's statement, unconditional love for RLB.

From all areas the overwhelming air is one of 'my side can do no wrong' tribalism rather than any sensible discussion.

 

[belboid]

I'll just quote this from the link bimble posted earlier today:

Making connections between the U.S. and Israel without context can do harm
Highlighting these police exchange programs without enough context or depth can end up harming our movements for justice. Suggesting that Israel is the start or source of American police violence or racism shifts the blame from the United States to Israel. This obscures the fundamental responsibility and nature of the U.S., and harms Black people and Black-led struggle. It also furthers an antisemitic ideology. White supremacists look for any opportunity to glorify and advance American anti-Black racism, and any chance to frame Jews as secretly controlling and manipulating the world. Taking police exchanges out of context provides fodder for those racist and antisemitic tropes.

ffs. She did make a context. The problem was it was wrong, so she needed to say sorry and correct it - which she did. And RLB was perfectly happy to correct her comment too. In a snae world that would be the end of it,

 

[belboid]

Just been shown a friend's FB feed/timeline/whatever it is, quite depressing; totally full of outright denial, refusing to acknowledge any problem with AS at all in the party, repeatedly using shit arguments to defend Peake's statement, love for RLB.

The overwhelming air is one of 'my side can do no wrong' tribalism rather than any sensible discussion.

try the Labour Against the Witch-hunt site - 'solidarity with RLB even tho she had it coming for not defending Jackie Walker' being the gist of it

Thankfully nearly all of my friends and comrades have had far more sensible discussions about the matter.

 

[platinumsage]

ffs. She did make a context. The problem was it was wrong, so she needed to say sorry and correct it - which she did. And RLB was perfectly happy to correct her comment too. In a snae world that would be the end of it,

No context whatsoever. Literally a bolt out of the blue. RLB not even mentioning anti-semitism, total failure.

 

[killer b]

Maybe in a world where this exact issue hadn't been a gaping wound in the side of the party for 5 years, and partly responsible for a massive election loss (and definitely responsible for the left being booted out of any positions of real influence in the party) it would have been the end of it.

 

[belboid]

No context whatsoever. Literally a bolt out of the blue. RLB not even mentioning anti-semitism, total failure.

considering your passionate support for socialism previously i will take this without any pinch of salt whatsoever and completely believe that you mean it genuinely

 

[belboid]

(and definitely responsible for the left being booted out of any positions of real influence in the party)

now that is definitely bollocks. Fucking europe did the left internally, and the usual bullshit shenanigans about how to choose NEC nominees. AS had a very minor influence on those.

 

[bimble]

only by morons and those blatantly doing so to stir shit. Funny that

This is just so shit. Anyone who thought that what was written by that actor is dodgy (instead of a simple error made whilst picking at random an example of how police brutality is an international problem ) is either a moron or a shit stirring liar. Brilliant.

 

[mauvais]

ffs. She did make a context. The problem was it was wrong, so she needed to say sorry and correct it - which she did. And RLB was perfectly happy to correct her comment too. In a snae world that would be the end of it,

In a context-free world that might be the end of it.

But there is context and the context is the Jews are the most played group of people in modern UK politics.

A whole bunch of shit history meant that over decades and centuries they got the blame for the ills of the world.
Many on the left absorbed that and propagated it themselves.
The right used AS a weapon against the left without giving an actual fuck about AS.
The left, under siege, decided to defend themselves and in doing so threw Jews under the bus and downplayed, ignored or even victim blamed their suffering.
The right sabotaged any remaining positive left efforts to tackle AS and got a great deal of political capital out of it.
Various other entities like the political Jewish leadership, and apparent 'onlookers' like the Tories have made great gains from it all again at the expense of normal people.
Much of the left failed to stop and call any of this what it is, weaponisation of AS - itself AS - in which they have been complicit. As we see in RLBgate, they're still arguing the 'yes but' toss over partisan factional issues, at the expense of Jews.

You know all this though. And none of this is going to be ended by Labour party or electoral bullshit, it's going to be resolved by taking some moral responsibility.

 

[killer b]

now that is definitely bollocks. Fucking europe did the left internally, and the usual bullshit shenanigans about how to choose NEC nominees. AS had a very minor influence on those.

I guess it's hard to face up to being responsible for torpedoing the only chance of a socialist government in your lifetime.

 

[belboid]

In a context-free world that might be the end of it.

But there is context and the context is the Jews are the most played group of people in modern UK politics.

i think there may be one or two muslims who dispute that.

A whole bunch of shit history meant that over decades and centuries they got the blame for the ills of the world.
Many on the left absorbed that and propagated it themselves.
The right used AS a weapon against the left without giving an actual fuck about AS.
The left, under siege, decided to defend themselves and in doing so threw Jews under the bus and downplayed, ignored or even victim blamed their suffering.
The right sabotaged any remaining positive left efforts to tackle AS and got a great deal of political capital out of it.
Various other entities like the political Jewish leadership, and apparent 'onlookers' like the Tories have made great gains from it all again at the expense of normal people.
Much of the left failed to stop and call any of this what it is, weaponisation of AS - itself AS - in which they have been complicit. As we see in RLBgate, they're still arguing the 'yes but' toss over partisan factional issues, at the expense of Jews.

You know all this though. And none of this is going to be ended by Labour party or electoral bullshit, it's going to be resolved by taking some moral responsibility.

When issues are used in a partisan way, any response is bound to also be partisan. Because politics isn't just an academic exchange of views. Its shit but we cant just pretend it doesn't happen. Taking 'moral responsibility' wouldn't change that.

 

[belboid]

I guess it's hard to face up to being responsible for torpedoing the only chance of a socialist government in your lifetime.

yup, it was me that made Labour adopt it looking both ways position on Europe and to throw everything but the kitchen sink into the manifesto. If only they'd taken up my call for a people's militia we'd be in a socialist paradise by now.,

 

[killer b]

It's hot outside again today - maybe you should go for a swim. I found a river that would suit you.

 

[Brainaddict]

There are parallels:

1. "White lives matter" - of course they do, but in the context of BLM, it is at best crass and ignorant, at worst a catch phrase chanted by neo-nazis.
2. "Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews" - of course it isn't, but in the context of anti-semitism in the Labour party and anti-semitic conspiraloons all over the place, such criticism is often crass and ignorant at best, at worst, a dog whistle to neo-nazis.

Anyone in politics should be able to understand those nuances. Unfortunately the conservatives are full of people who don't get 1 and the labour party is full of people who don't get 2.

Yes, twitter is full of people not getting why RLB should have spotted Peake's error. And leftist magazines that are sometimes quite decent are digging their heels in.

I have still found no-one to answer me about why the UK left spends about 20x more time talking about Israel than the war on drugs - a racism-based vector for imperialist power that has fucked up (and is fucking up) more countries than a racist Israeli colonist could dream of. I had a big fight with a friend about it last year and they wouldn't give ground on it, but all it confirmed to me was that they couldn't argue rationally about it and - for whatever reason - debating whether or not so much time should be spent shit-talking Israel threatened their identity. Of course the colonisation of Palestine is fucked up, but being against Israel should not be a key part of your leftist identity. It needs to stop.

 

[bimble]

It's hot outside again today - maybe you should go for a swim. I found a river that would suit you.

View attachment 219510

Where’s that ?

 

[NoXion]

Where’s that ?

A famous river in Egypt.

 

[bimble]