belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
de nial, of course.
if you (KB) really think labours defeat (and the lefts within labour) was all down to AS, I cant help you, but you are delusional. And that blinds you to labours other failings.
Keir Starmer's time is up
- Thread starter agricola
- Start date
de nial, of course.
if you (KB) really think labours defeat (and the lefts within labour) was all down to AS, I cant help you, but you are delusional. And that blinds you to labours other failings.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
er your conclusion doesn't follow from the arguments you put forwards.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I'm saying that the somewhat unhealthy obsession with Israel has gone so far it has become an identity issue for many. And that's bad.
bimble
floofy
This is quite interesting. Do you feel that you have been backed into a corner now where in order to stick up for your embattled team you have to call anyone who thought what the actor said was dodgy a moron or a shit stirring liar? As in you feel theres no other option ? Not having a go right now, genuinely curious.
It isn't all down to it you bell, any more than it's all down to any single cause. It's certainly a potent part of the mix though.
Treacle Toes
Time
I've always thought it is more to do with anti-aparthied campaigns/movements being very much apart of 'leftist' traditions . In living memory those against SA apartheid for example. Boycotts, protests, lobbying, the lot. Why isn't that an okay stance to take on Israel?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think you'll find that lots of people arrive at their opinion of the zionist entity based not on it being part of of an identikit left identity but on what the zionists have actually done. on what people think of them doing that. i started forming my own opinion of the ze based on what happened in lebanon, especially at sabra and shatila, and while i wish the massacres there had been aberrations so much of what the ze has done subsequently has confirmed my view. the history of the ze & the apartheid regime in south africa also places it in a camp which i think most people, and not just lefties, would find objectionable.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
no
Smangus
comatose at a desk
The "trouble" with zero tolerance policies is that they leave no room for manoeuvre or interpretation if you are to be taken seriously on it. On stating he had such a policy Starmer didn't leave himself any choice really.
The fact it is RLB is a bit irrelevant as he would have had to kick the 1st sniff of AS into touch whoever it was, given his previous statements. This is part of a pitch from him to voters, not the LP.
Surprised RLB wasn't more savvy though, or then again maybe I'm not, dunno.
The fact it is RLB is a bit irrelevant as he would have had to kick the 1st sniff of AS into touch whoever it was, given his previous statements. This is part of a pitch from him to voters, not the LP.
Surprised RLB wasn't more savvy though, or then again maybe I'm not, dunno.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I guess it's because of the Jews controlling banking stuff. maybe even a bit of anti organised religion as well.
He was always going to get rid of Long-Bailey, now he gets to look decisive and put a hard stop on the AS stuff as well.
Treacle Toes
Time
Back to RLB...she has fallen foul of her own standards it seems...
mauvais
on reddit or something
This is exactly why it continues, and why it probably can't be dealt with by the left within and around Labour. The compulsion to respond in a partisan way is both harmful and self-destructive and they/you need to find a way out of that cycle.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Some said that folk were obsessed with opposing apartheid south africa too, which led them to ignoring other appalling governments in Africa. Those people were obviously full of shit.
Israel has been an international cause for the left since 1948. It is, particularly since 67, the most notable of the 'arch-reactionary' states still standing. The South African and Chilean regimes fell (in part thanks to international support and solidarity). It is the last of the monolithic reactionary states that are on 'the west's side.' It IS a settler colonial state. These are just facts, the religion of the state is irrelevant to that. It is the most recent state to be established on an explicitly racist manner (a land with no people.....). It would be absurd if Labour politicians and supporters just stopped talking about it, and would be acquiescing to apartheid.
Few people will defend how the war on drugs fucked up eg. Guatemala assuming they knew about it if the first place. There isn't anything immediate to push against on that one. With Israel the government tacitly supports even Cast Lead/Protective Edge and Israel's supporters push for even firmer support and this creates a leftwing backlash. There was genuine widespread outrage over that and people educated themselves about the Nakba etc. After Cast Lead there was a sense that attitudes were changing so a lot people got enthusiastic about it. It's also a campaign that has been around for decades. It's old, ongoing, brutal and part of the topical everyday conversation with people taking up camps on both sides.
There are also various loons obsessing about the topic as well of course and they add to it. And the whole discussion is getting stigmatised because of them and the backlash against them. There's very little anybody can do about the situation on the ground. BDS was always hopelessly overrated. And there's lots of cogs furiously spinning but not contacting with anything. For some people it becomes more about attacking the other side and that helps the loons.
I think if anything now it is a deeply unfashionable topic for some on the left and I think that's why we are seeing a backlash against the mere mention of Israel outside of carefully delineated discussion. People on this very thread are saying it is part of a general problem with the left even when they can't identify specifics.
There are also various loons obsessing about the topic as well of course and they add to it. And the whole discussion is getting stigmatised because of them and the backlash against them. There's very little anybody can do about the situation on the ground. BDS was always hopelessly overrated. And there's lots of cogs furiously spinning but not contacting with anything. For some people it becomes more about attacking the other side and that helps the loons.
I think if anything now it is a deeply unfashionable topic for some on the left and I think that's why we are seeing a backlash against the mere mention of Israel outside of carefully delineated discussion. People on this very thread are saying it is part of a general problem with the left even when they can't identify specifics.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
It is a settler colonial state, and the analogies with SA and Rhodesia are real and significant. . . but the differences are just as real and maybe even more important. The Rhodesians experienced a humiliating failure with their "Settlers '74" campaign, which was supposed to boost the white minority's numbers via crash white immigration. It attracted no major numbers at all.
Compare that with the regular demographic expansion of the Israeli population. There is of course, a certain something that drives Jewish immigration to that country. . .
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Maybe because it only seems to be Israel now, and has been for all my adult life. Israel is not the devil. If I were to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world in recent years, and which 'we' are complicit in the damage they do, it would be Saudi Arabia. But there are so many other fucked up things happening in the world too.
A slightly different point, but what does it looks like to Israelis do you think that the left just happens to have got obsessed with their country, far more so than any other?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Apartheid South Africa was easy to oppose, there being no justification for any of it, nothing about self-defence against surrounding hostile states, or establishing a homeland after centuries of brutal oppression.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I'm not sure you're paying attention. The war on drugs has totally fucked, within the last twenty years: Colombia, Mexico, the Phillipines, Thailand and Myanmar. And I'm talking just about the countries that got to extreme levels of fuckedupness, not even those like the US and Britain where it is merely a key driver of racist violence by the authorities.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Also the ideology of white supremacy in SA never overcame the bittterness and division between the Afrikaners and the English. There's nothing comparable in Israel - there may be some needle between Ashkenazic and Sephardic communities (at least in the past - is it true today?) but it's hardly the same as what happened in SA.
ska invita
back on the other side
My understanding is that Britain's history is closely tied to Israel particularly, and the wider Middle East, in a way it isnt to Colombia or Mexico
Balfour Decleration of 1917 a key starting point, though you could go back to the crusades if you really wanted
Continued Anglo-American warfaring in the middle east throughout the following century
Israel's strong connection with the US brings it into the Anglo-political sphere (somewhat distinct from Latin America)
A well established Palestinian solidarity campaign - chronologically running alongside the Anti-Apartheid movement
A major global political focus on the region, politically and in reporting throughout the second half of the twentieth century, as a flashpoint and cornerstone of middle eastern tensions more generally
...and so on. Im sure there's plenty more that could be said. Balfour Deceleration particularly makes Britain politically responsible for what continues to happen in Israel, IMO.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I know this looks like whataboutery. But Israel is not the devil, that's the point. Absolutely nothing is gained by acting as though it is. It certainly doesn't impact on the behavour of Israel as a state.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
SA frequently used defense against hostile states as an excuse for its repression and apartheid justified itself through its origins in the oppression of dutch calvinists by catholics.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
The British left shows no interest in the activities of the state in India, literally created by the British and still behaving as a violent colonial entity in tribal areas. There should be a much closer tie, historically, considering the hundreds of years of the Raj.
I'm going to leave this argument here because I have other things to do and I've probably made enough enemies for the day.
Actually there was all of that. Completely part of the pro-apartheid rhetoric. "Boerehaat"
bellaozzydog
rolling turds in glitter
excellent, can you evidence this litany of minor anti-semitism
tbf one of the stories of the election was Labour apparently losing the british indian vote because of their attitude to the Modi government
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Yes, it is easy to understand why many wanted the creation of a state of Israel. And it is easy to see why many still consider it is attractive to many jews. Of course the black jews get treated fairly appallingly too, but that is by the by. The tragedy is, as more and more move to Israel, the possibilities for any kind of two state settlement move from unlikely to impossible. The occupied territories will never be handed back so all the Palestinians would be left with is a lousy set up of Bantustans. As Israel has expanded, the left within the country has shrunk. Opposition to Israeli militarisation and occupation has shrunk to almost nothing. It's fucking tragic.
lol get to fuck.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i am very surprised by your identification of saudi arabia when if i was to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world etc i think i'd point towards westminster. being as britain has been complicit in the things which have really fucked the world in recent years, things like selling weapons to saudi arabia (let's after all blame the seller), things like supporting the united states in its lunatic military adventures and lining up alongside very few countries in the invasion of iraq which created waves the final effects of which we have not yet seen, things like supporting countries like the ze in international institutions like the un. and this is before the uk cheerleading for and participating in the toppling of gadaffi and creation of a situation which looks today like it's going to be a bloody big war potentially involving countries from across the middle east.
it's never a great surprise to me that people don't pay that much attention, never see this country, as a very fucking big problem for the world. every government we've had in my lifetime has always wanted to punch above its weight. has always wanted to retain the ability to fight over the other side of the world. i think this country has been involved in more wars since 1945 than any other. and its always been very willing to sell not only weaponry but equipment whose only purpose is torture to repressive regimes.
things are always sexier when you see them from afar. but perhaps you ought to look at matters rather closer to home.
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