Keir Starmer's time is up

[belboid]

Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century. I’d have been on your side of that conversation but we missed it.

yup, and it has been shown how it was an awful idea.

 

[bimble]

Ah but where does it begin and end?

Thing is, talking about how that country should not exist, when it does, what’s the point unless you have a plan to what send them all back to Lithuania Iraq etc. We’ve all been round these houses plenty of times it’s stupid.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The main issue seems to me to be this:

"Look at what's happening to the Uighurs!"
"Yeah, but Israel"
"Black Lives Matter!
"Israel though, innit."
"Smash capitalism!"
"Definitely Isreal."
Etc, etc....

Who is doing this?

 

[Pickman's model]

Thing is, talking about how that country should not exist, when it does, what’s the point unless you have a plan to what send them all back to Lithuania etc. We’ve all been round these houses plenty of times it’s stupid.

Did you read my post or just look gawpingly at it in confusion? I am not and have not denied the existence of the Zionist entity, tho I don't believe it has any more right to exist than eg the holy roman empire had a right to exist. I am asking where, for you, does the ze begin and end?

 

[Serge Forward]

Out of curiosity have you ever boycotted a nation state?

Currently avoiding all produce of Sealand.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century. I’d have been on your side of that conversation but we missed it.

This is one of the reasons why imo it's so important not to abandon the Palestinian cause to those who are nakedly antisemitic. The Jewish population of Israel is there now. Any kind of solution needs to involve finding a way of allowing them and the Palestinians to share the land (and its resources). I don't see how that can be done except in one state - with power-sharing arrangements - otherwise the power inequalities just produce the bantustanation we have now. Tough, needing painful concessions from both sides, but the start of that would have to be both sides acknowledging at least some of the claims of the other side.

 

[Serge Forward]

Who is doing this?

Quite a few left Labour Party people I encounter locally.

Edit - and isn't that part of the problem with Maxine Peake's comments. US cop kneels on George Floyd's neck.... Israel.

 

[Pickman's model]

Currently avoiding all produce of Sealand.

Did you back in the day avoid South African produce?

 

[Serge Forward]

I did.

 

[belboid]

Thing is, talking about how that country should not exist, when it does, what’s the point unless you have a plan to what send them all back to Lithuania Iraq etc. We’ve all been round these houses plenty of times it’s stupid.

i support a single secular state for all.

 

[belboid]

Quite a few left Labour Party people I encounter locally.

uhuh

 

[Pickman's model]

i support a single secular state for all.

A sensible advance on the current situation and which could form a basis on which the work towards the abolition of that institution

 

[Serge Forward]

uhuh

Aye, it's like Pavlog's fucking dogs with some of them. Mention anything fucked up in the world and they start barking Israel this, Israel that, anti-zionist (borderline anti-semitic) shite. It's a bit upsetting really as one of them was someone I previously had a lot of time for and saw as a mate.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Quite a few left Labour Party people I encounter locally.

Edit - and isn't that part of the problem with Maxine Peake's comments. US cop kneels on George Floyd's neck.... Israel.

I see what you mean now. Whatever the issue, it's about finding the Israel angle.

 

[Pickman's model]

Quite a few left Labour Party people I encounter locally.

Edit - and isn't that part of the problem with Maxine Peake's comments. US cop kneels on George Floyd's neck.... Israel.

Tbh it sounds like pub bores I used to know, one man no matter the subject you started on would within five minutes have got onto the second world war, and generally the quality of German weapons. Every time. Without fail.

 

[belboid]

It is a comfort zone for some, especially of a certain age. Unlike, say, Syria, it is relatively straight forward and an argument they are well used to. Of course, there are a few of them who make Syria easy by parroting the Russia Today line and they do start to veer toward the conspiraloon end of things.

 

[bimble]

it is relatively straight forward

lol

 

[Struwwelpeter]

I don't think the parallels there are so useful. Anyone making the 'white lives matter too' point has clearly utterly missed the point of BLM, which itself of course has a 'too' implied at the end. There is no need for anyone to champion 'white rights'.

Your second point appears to be saying that one should abandon the Palestinian cause because it is also championed by racists. If anything I think I would argue the opposite - the cause is clearly just and that produces an imperative not to allow it to be abandoned to racists. How could any good ever come from abandoning that cause when criticism of Israel is very far from 'crass and ignorant at best'. There is a need for someone to champion the rights of Palestinians. How much better is it when that cause is championed in a non-racist, non-ignorant way?

No I'm not saying that the Palestinian cause should be abandoned; If I need to spell it out, I'm saying that criticism of the Israeli government and its agencies in particular by senior Labour members, should only be done with caution, because of the history of anti-semitism, not just in the modern Labour party but worldwide, across centuries. That means it must be relevant (George Floyd's murder and BLM was not relevant), specific (the article was not specific, although other stuff on Israeli security training has been), and accurate (it wasn't). If RLB had had a job that related to Palestine (shadow foreign secretary, International Development etc.) and there was something relevant to say, then criticism of the Israeli gov would have been fair enough, but let's face it, she wouldn't have been up to those jobs.

 

[Wilf]

No I'm not saying that the Palestinian cause should be abandoned; If I need to spell it out, I'm saying that criticism of the Israeli government and its agencies in particular by senior Labour members, should only be done with caution, because of the history of anti-semitism, not just in the modern Labour party but worldwide, across centuries. That means it must be relevant (George Floyd's murder and BLM was not relevant), specific (the article was not specific, although other stuff on Israeli security training has been), and accurate (it wasn't). If RLB had had a job that related to Palestine (shadow foreign secretary, International Development etc.) and there was something relevant to say, then criticism of the Israeli gov would have been fair enough, but let's face it, she wouldn't have been up to those jobs.

That's a pretty fucked up situation though isn't it: 'don't go in hard on the Israeli state because of history and the existence of anti-semitic conspiratwats'. It's also an example of the existence of antisemitic conspiracists, with their tendrils into the left, at once both attacks and defends the Israeli state and Israeli right. It attacks Israel (or Jewish people more accurately) but also serves to blunt criticisms of Israel. The left should be able to say direct and clear things about oppression and power. And, of course, it should be able to do that without being antisemitic.

 

[Struwwelpeter]

I'm not saying don't ever go in hard. I'm saying, do it with the knowledge that your words might (will?) get misinterpreted, twisted and used against you. That means, being relevant, precise and accurate. My point is that RLB's retweet was not any of those. I don't know enough about her to know whether she is anti-semitic, but her carelessness is part of Labour's anti-semitism problem.

 

[bimble]

It is a comfort zone for some, especially of a certain age. Unlike, say, Syria, it is relatively straight forward and an argument they are well used to. Of course, there are a few of them who make Syria easy by parroting the Russia Today line and they do start to veer toward the conspiraloon end of things.

Sorry but thinking about this a bit more, when you say the israel-palestine situation "is relatively straightforward" its pretty obvious what you mean is it's easy to enthusiastically and uncomplicatedly pick a side, a team. Nothing is straighforward even in your mind about what to actually do to make anything better. Which is kind of interesting & possibly symptomatic of a wider problem.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century. I’d have been on your side of that conversation but we missed it.

East Germany, The USSR, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Third Reich, Tannu Tuva, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Sudan, apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, Hong Kong, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire etc etc etc

Countries can be created, or destroyed, or divided, or merge. It happens throughout history. A statement of the bleeding obvious, really.

 

[belboid]

Sorry but thinking about this a bit more, when you say the israel-palestine situation "is relatively straightforward" its pretty obvious what you mean is it's easy to enthusiastically and uncomplicatedly pick a side, a team. Nothing is straighforward even in your mind about what to actually do to make anything better. Which is kind of interesting & possibly symptomatic of a wider problem.

No, I mean it is easy to explain it’s history and reasons for opposing.

It's a settler colonial state imposed upon the region as a destablising influence and (particularly since 67) as America’s watchdog in the area. It is to be opposed by boycotts divestment and sanctions. Just as South Africa was opposed. Plus solidarity to the plo. There’s debate as to how much of a role the Israeli working class can play and how useful direct aid for Palestine is, but general agreement around bds and breaking links.

 

[bimble]

That post just looks very sad to me belboid tbh, like here's the 5 bullet points anyone ever need to consider to be on the correct side of this argument, totally pointless wank. Anyway, not good for me these threads i'm better off sticking to the one about watching birds.

 

[belboid]

That post just looks very sad to me belboid tbh, like here's the 5 bullet points anyone ever need to consider to be on the correct side of this argument, totally pointless wank. Anyway, not good for me these threads i'm off back to the one about watching birds.

Good for you

 

[Treacle Toes]

Hands up who would be happy to be a Muslim Palestinian living under the brutal, murderous regime of the Israeli Apartheid State? Hands up who would enjoy being the average working class Jewish Israeli under this regime?

Not one person on this thread would choose this fate for themselves, but when it comes to the lives of others, it's complicated and about picking 'teams' ?

It's about right and wrong. The only complexities I can see are about how to deal with it, how to support and oppose. Even more so because neither the UK government, nor the US administration has any motivation to call it out for what it is. Quite the opposite in fact, they're colluding in it.

 

[LDC]

No, I mean it is easy to explain it’s history and reasons for opposing.

It's a settler colonial state imposed upon the region as a destablising influence and (particularly since 67) as America’s watchdog in the area. It is to be opposed by boycotts divestment and sanctions. Just as South Africa was opposed. Plus solidarity to the plo. There’s debate as to how much of a role the Israeli working class can play and how useful direct aid for Palestine is, but general agreement around bds and breaking links.

Do find it mildly amusing how you throw 'Plus solidarity to the PLO' in like it's a uncontroversial and simple point that nobody could disagree with!

 

[CNT36]

East Germany, The USSR, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Third Reich, Tannu Tuva, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Sudan, apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, Hong Kong, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire etc etc etc

Countries can be created, or destroyed, or divided, or merge. It happens throughout history. A statement of the bleeding obvious, really.

I tried to write a very similar post a few months back but made a hash of it and was rightly called out. Cheers.

 

[Serge Forward]

Hands up who would be happy to be a Muslim Palestinian living under the brutal, murderous regime of the Israeli State? Hands up who would enjoy being the average working class Jewish Israeli under this regime?

Not one person on this thread would choose this fate for themselves, but when it comes to the lives of others, it's complicated and about picking 'teams' .

It's about right and wrong. The only complexities I can see are about how to deal with it, how to support and oppose. Even more so because neither the UK government, nor the US administration has any motivation to call it out for what it is. Quite the opposite in fact, they're colluding in it.

I agree. I don't think there's many on here that would choose to be a Palestinian living under the Israeli state... or the Palestinian Authority, for that matter. I doubt there's many on here that would support the activities of the Israel regime and the IDF either. And as we're precisely talking about Israel now, that's all fair enough.

But whenever someone is discussing any of the other numerous places on the globe we wouldn't want to be a citizen of, places where the UK, US and other governments also collude with the oppressors... and then some proponent of the anti imperialism of fools insists on relating it all to Israel, then it makes you think...

 

[chilango]