Keir Starmer's time is up

[Karl Masks]

Lets vote Mussolini, he's not as bad as that awful Hitler chap.

You've just shot down your own argument

 

[redsquirrel]

And while I'm not a supporter of electoralism it would be a strange reading that did not conclude that part of the shift of the Democratic Party left from Obama to Biden was not driven by the fact that the Democrats realised that while they needed swing voters they also needed to get their base out.
That the party did have to throw some meat to the base if they wanted to win. Because voters were not writing them a totally blank cheque is one the reasons why they have shifted.

 

[Karl Masks]

And does anyone really expect the likes of Starmer to do anything meaningful about the energy price rises and inflation?

In any case we atleast need autonomous alternatives from below to hold politicians to account.

Well the key word is meaningful. What do you consider as such?

I believe Starmer would do something. Again because it serves capital. You don't have to believe he's a saint to realise capital wants a stable productive work force. That's why we get reforms. Even though we'd rather end capitalism, I'll take reforms as a transitional gain. Not the end product.

He did suggest a windfall tax, the tories? nothing.

That's your choice.

We can agree we need autonomous alternatives. So when will they happen?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

And does anyone really expect the likes of Starmer to do anything meaningful

no

 

[Karl Masks]

The alternative is trying to re-build the labour movement. And of course that is hard, of course it is difficult but that really is the only option on the table for anyone with any sort of class politics.

The gains workers have obtained were not obtained because of the largess of the Labour Party (or any other party), they were gained through working class solidarity and class politics. Yes the LP might have passed bills in Westminster but it was the labour movement that won those victories. Even at its most radical the LP was always only (part of) the parliamentary wing of the labour movement.

Politics does not end with voting, it starts from there.
We are seeing more industrial action than for decades. There are community groups forming, there is a lot of action on environmental issues. There is no shortage of alternatives to voting red/orange/yellow/green and then doing little but going on about how awful the Tories and Starmer are.

I agree, but in the meantime there will be elections. Do we ignore them?

 

[SpookyFrank]

When and where was the election in which people got to choose between Mussolini and Hitler?

 

[redsquirrel]

I agree, but in the meantime there will be elections. Do we ignore them?

What does that mean? Ignore them how? Are you planning to canvas for a party? Donate to a party? Organise? What?

Or are you just reducing politics to voting? I've already said I think voting is pretty much apolitical. I can't imagine I'll bother voting, but I'm not going chest prod others that decide to.

 

[SpookyFrank]

He did suggest a windfall tax, the tories? nothing.

He suggested it, and will fuck it off the first chance he gets as he has every other vaguely progressive policy he's ever pretended to support.

And fuck 'windfall tax' anyway. How about just 'tax' which corporations have to pay all the time. You know, like workers have to pay tax all the time not just when they've got a load of extra cash lying around. Or how about not running essential utilities for profit in the first place, so that the question of taxing those profits doesn't even come up.

The public should not be excited about the prospect of clawing back 1% of what was stolen from them, and having it spent repairing 1% of the damage the thieves did to get it.

 

[Karl Masks]

He suggested it, and will fuck it off the first chance he gets as he has every other vaguely progressive policy he's ever pretended to support.

And fuck 'windfall tax' anyway. How about just 'tax' which corporations have to pay all the time. You know, like workers have to pay tax all the time not just when they've got a load of extra cash lying around. Or how about not running essential utilities for profit in the first place, so that the question of taxing those profits doesn't even come up.

The public should not be excited about the prospect of clawing back 1% of what was stolen from them, and having it spent repairing 1% of the damage the thieves did to get it.

I don't fully disagree. All I know is that I cannot countenance the Tories returning. I would much rather fight Starmer.

It may not be a rational argument, but I'm sat in the freezing cold typing with cold fingers. I can't do objectivity anymore. Come the next GE, if the Tories come knocking on my door I'm likely to end up before m'ludd.

 

[Karl Masks]

What does that mean? Ignore them how? Are you planning to canvas for a party? Donate to a party? Organise? What?

Or are you just reducing politics to voting? I've already said I think voting is pretty much apolitical. I can't imagine I'll bother voting, but I'm not going chest prod others that decide to.

I mean do we vote or no

 

[redsquirrel]

I mean do we vote or no

Right so your are reducing politics to voting.

If you are going to be consistent you should not just be arguing for a vote against the Tories (which as has been pointed out will be meaningless for most anyway), you should be arguing for joining Labour (or whoever), that people go out canvassing, that they donate, etc. Actual political actions rather than just sticking a mark on a bit of paper.

 

[Karl Masks]

Right so your are reducing politics to voting.

If you are going to be consistent you should not just be arguing for a vote against the Tories (which as has been pointed out will be meaningless for most anyway), you should be arguing for joining Labour (or whoever), that people go out canvassing, that they donate, etc. Actual political actions rather than just sticking a mark on a bit of paper.

Those actions aren't happening. The system is in place and will produce a result by the end of 2024 at the latest. All I'm saying is that we should influence that to gain wahtever we can, no matter how little, where possible. The argument for consistency is irrelevant to me, I'm just saying people should do whatever they can however they can to improve things somewhat. I would love to see a revolutionary workers party but the left cant even agree on whether to support even that (look at tusc). I don't see any radical stuff happening anytime soon. If I'm wrong, then I'm glad to be wrong.

YMMV i'm not content to sit things out on election day

 

[redsquirrel]

Yes consistency was never your strong point. There are a shit loads of actions happening.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I'm sat in the freezing cold typing with cold fingers.

Well don't worry, you've only got to wait over a year for your precious general election. Hopefully by then you're fingers won't have turned to ice.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I'll probably vote Green. Not because they have a hope of getting in. Not because I believe in parliamentary politics. Largely because the more votes they get the more our political discourse will take notice of ecological issues.

Jeezus fucking christ

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Well the key word is meaningful. What do you consider as such?

I've told you before

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I'll take reforms as a transitional gain.

Jeezus you really are deluded.

 

[Pickman's model]

Those actions aren't happening. The system is in place and will produce a result by the end of 2024 at the latest. All I'm saying is that we should influence that to gain wahtever we can, no matter how little, where possible. The argument for consistency is irrelevant to me, I'm just saying people should do whatever they can however they can to improve things somewhat. I would love to see a revolutionary workers party but the left cant even agree on whether to support even that (look at tusc). I don't see any radical stuff happening anytime soon. If I'm wrong, then I'm glad to be wrong.

YMMV i'm not content to sit things out on election day

So what are you going to do on election day, whine on here?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Jeezus fucking christ

Well look mate, I may be wrong. But I'm now 67 years old. Been an anarchist since I was 15. I would love it if things could be changed really radically. I've been banging on about such things for a long time. People tend to listen a bit, often agree or agree with some of it, and then proceed not to do what I would like them to. In the meantime I have a life to live and it does make a difference which type of government is in power, some of the time in some areas. It does matter what issues are talked about in political discourse. It does matter if I can afford to heat the house over the winter. If all you can do is demand unconditional revolutionary politics from all and sundry at all times then your grasp on reality needs a bit more work.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I would add that the climate emergency is now so acute and desperate that we have to ask/demand that governments and capitalist enterprises behave appropriately. If we wait for the revolution to sort things out we are truly doomed, (which we may be anyway, but who knows for sure?).

 

[Karl Masks]

I've told you before

why do you think these things aren't being done then?

 

[Karl Masks]

I would add that the climate emergency is now so acute and desperate that we have to ask/demand that governments and capitalist enterprises behave appropriately. If we wait for the revolution to sort things out we are truly doomed, (which we may be anyway, but who knows for sure?).

I think we all know for sure, unfortuantely

 

[Karl Masks]

So what are you going to do on election day, whine on here?

I'll go and vote. It's not something that will be arduous for me and takes ten minutes of my time, assuming I still can under the Tories' new laws. Another reason to vote them out.

I've no idea why you think that constitutes whining, perhaps grow up a bit

 

[inva]

Well look mate, I may be wrong. But I'm now 67 years old. Been an anarchist since I was 15. I would love it if things could be changed really radically. I've been banging on about such things for a long time. People tend to listen a bit, often agree or agree with some of it, and then proceed not to do what I would like them to. In the meantime I have a life to live and it does make a difference which type of government is in power, some of the time in some areas. It does matter what issues are talked about in political discourse. It does matter if I can afford to heat the house over the winter. If all you can do is demand unconditional revolutionary politics from all and sundry at all times then your grasp on reality needs a bit more work.

-I'm not an anarchist anymore because I've given up waiting around for revolution and it matters what government is in power.
-So who're you voting for then?
-...the Green Party

 

[Chilli.s]

Iv voted tactically in the past and it always sticks in the craw. i dont think Ill do that again. Labour dont even bother where I live, second party my arse

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm pretty sure it's possible to organise autonomously with comrades, and also cast a vote in a general election in the hope it'll fuck the tories off. I'm not sure the one precludes the other, that is I've never found comrades standing in my way as I walk into a polling station.

I don't know how black and white either/or attitudes help anyone tbh. Just get this shit show out of office, deal with what comes next, next.

 

[Rob Ray]

You don't have to believe he's a saint to realise capital wants a stable productive work force.

Well that's the rub, isn't it. All Parliamentary logic revolves around that. Which is why the policies of parties in power rarely have much to do with public opinion, or their own mooted philosophical inclinations. It's why the thread of Parliamentary action has headed in a pretty consistent direction for the last 50 years.

All that voting, Labour and Tory both, has led us to a position which is less free and less prosperous than that of our ancestors, where our expectations have relentlessly shrunk. That's what "least worst option" voting does when there's no extra-Parliamentary leverage, which is the thing that actually matters.

Not that I personally care if you vote btw, I just think going on about how everyone should do so is like demanding everyone should help you rearrange deckchairs.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I'll go and vote.

Perfectly content to vote for racism and attacks on the working class and unions, says it all.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

why do you think these things aren't being done then?

Probably something to do with too many people like you being too dependent on politicians and putting all their time and energy into electoralism that'll get us nowhere. Thats certainly partly to do with it I reckon.

 

[platinumsage]

Probably something to do with too many people like you being too dependent on politicians and putting all their time and energy into electoralism that'll get us nowhere. Thats certainly partly to do with it I reckon.

Are you planning on gluing yourself to ballot boxes or something?