No. Why would I do that?
Keir Starmer's time is up
- Thread starter agricola
- Start date
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
To stop people putting their energy into electoralism of course.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
No matter how much glue he uses he won't be as firmly stuck as your record. And that record is, of course, the status quo.
That you thought of that says more about you than me.
Maybe he's paid by the Labour Party to promote them online.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
That’s true enough but it does rather rely on there being somebody you are willing to vote for
ska invita
back on the other side
This is a bit special
...etc
...etc
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Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
I think you overestimate my influence
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Streeting really is a cuntThis is a bit special
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
But would you vote for him?
ska invita
back on the other side
Worse than that this is official Labour line, coms team signed sealed delivered
mojo pixy
interesting times
Whoever is most likely to unseat the tory or keep them from winning. I don't think there's anybody to really vote for, but for me that's a different issue than getting / keeping tories out.
Alongside that there is plenty more to be done eg. with my union, or in my town with my son's school, with others at the library, through the council etc. That stuff has nothing to do with simply keeping the tories out at a GE.
mojo pixy
interesting times
Of course we could band together in a citizens' militia and overthrow the government by force as we don't recognise their fascistic, satanistic evil as legitimate. I'm pretty sure there are people genuinely aiming at that, they can't be too hard to hook up with.
I hear there was such a group active in Germany recently, maybe there are a few leftovers from that looking to be recruited? They may not care which government they topple after all, as they're all as illegitimate as each other or something.
I hear there was such a group active in Germany recently, maybe there are a few leftovers from that looking to be recruited? They may not care which government they topple after all, as they're all as illegitimate as each other or something.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
Well, there’s the rub. I disagree that we’re inherently better off with a Starmer government and Tory opposition than we would be with a Sunak government and a social democratic Labour opposition holding them to account. Not in the long term and not even necessarily in the short term. You’re making a big assumption that “anyone but the Tories” automatically leads to better things even in the here and now.
mojo pixy
interesting times
It's not really an assumption, more looking at the governments I've seen over my lifetime. None have ever been perfect and I'd never pretend they have, but some have definitely been worse. Tory ones in particular IMO.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
Short-term, sure. But a government that can't actually do anything at all is a serious long-term liability. If not for Brexit, we'd have had 5 years of that nonsense. Plus it's totally cherry-picking to not throw Cameron and Johnson in - they'd skew the chart scale so far that May and Blair would be indistinguishable without a microscope.
mojo pixy
interesting times
You could be right, they were there longer and had more to lose / more time to fuck up, and they did. Iraq war was a massive lesson to a whole new generation.
What would really help would be adding none of the above to GE ballots, but importantly, counting those votes. I want n.o.t.a to win a GE, see what happens then. Or better still, massive national argument over what should happen then.
Most likely answer IMO is military coup at that point. Citizens' spontaneous insurrection is yeah OK a minuscule possibility, the MOD being far better armed and answerable to the king personally. So there's that.
Personally I'm in favour of running government the same as we run jury service, a few thousand citizens in 2 or three chambers, assigned a 6 year term so ~17% changes every year. Social systems eg life-long education, welfare, retail prices for essentials, health, transport, wealth taxing must be immediately changed to accommodate this new reality. Are you listening, @keir_starmer ? Oh as fucking if.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
I would have to look at the balance of labour vs the tories. The bottom line is which is the worse outcome since one of them is going to win whether we like it or not.
If there better option then put it on the table. This shouldn't be an excuse to play into capitalism's divide and rule
Why people find this funny when people are fucking dying escapes me. All the pretend class warriors laughing at other working class. What a great look that is.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Maybe some of us live in the real world and not a sixth form common room.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Nobody finds the situation funny, Karl. In some cases people are (perhaps unkindly) laughing at aspects of the conversation or a good comeback. But that's not the same thing as laughing at people dying.
On that note though, I do find this tendency of some voting advocates to try and claim they're the only ones who give a shit to be a particularly unpleasant tactic. You know perfectly well it's untrue that caring = voting, that vast numbers of people who don't vote do make a huge effort to be decent people and help those in need. There's lots of non-voting union and community activists who have sacrificed a great deal of their time (and not infrequently income) to make a difference, some of whom are on this very forum. It's a shit attempt at diverting into emotional blackmail and pretty shameful behaviour. As for tripe about sixth form common rooms, that says more about your need to grow up than anyone else's.
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Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Nothing about this situation is objectively good.
I am not saying voting advocates are the only ones who care. I am critical of some people, like AA who behaves like a bad impression of Rick from the Young Ones. They offer no answers nor any credible pathway to a better world. In the meantime this is the plate of shit we get. So if there are better solutions, I'm all for hearing them.
It also has to be taken into consideration that Streeting, who have no time for, was commenting in the Telegraph. Not a neutral organ as everyone knows
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
The Labour of Starmer, Streeting, etc is the homeopathic version of Labour
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
How have none of their trillions of consultants and PR drones pointed out that the public are largely behind striking workers despite the relentless onslaught against them from the entire media and both major parties?
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
AA can do doubt be abrasive when in full flow, but they're also very clear on their proposed solutions. The salient word here is "credible," which is, essentially, the root of the entire debate. Imv, and for a lot of others on here, the non-credible solution is to fuss over ballot boxes that have, objectively, provided a solidly anti-working class influence on the movement of Britain's economy for as long as most of us have been alive, under both Tory and Labour governments. And in fact the only serious possibility for pressure in the other direction, for which there are no shortcuts, ballot based or otherwise, is to rebuild and reinvent organs of independent working class power that can exercise leverage against the State whoever happens to be in charge. Essentially, a counter power to that which the capitalist class have so successfully used again and again to get their way, showcased in its full iron fisted glory only last month.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
i think there is a misunderstanding here: I don't look at the ballot box as a solution. It is a means to achieving some benefits along the way. The cost of ignoring it means the Tories return and, for now, I believe that is materially worse. That's really all there is to it. Of course that could change: Starmer could come out tomorrow and say let's set fire to orphanages and I'd revise my opinion. None of this is set in stone and subject to nuance and caveats.
Yes. It does feel like they've misjudged the public mood (obviously they shouldn't be formulating policy based on public mood but that's seemingly where we are right now).
As I said on the strike thread, on Any Answers yesterday, callers were overwhelming behind the strikes/strikers. Which is interesting given it's generally pretty rightwing.
They're presumably calculating that anyone supportive of the strikers will generally dutifully vote for Labour regardless of how anti union they are, while hammering workers might peel off a few more disillusioned Tories or keep existing converts on side. In the very short term they're probably right.
Why anyone these days seriously thinks any politicians deserve their vote I really don't know. You'll get what you vote for and you'll be fully responsible to the harm done if who you vote for gains power, I won't be though.
I just want working class communities to be empowered rather than the ruling class. I just want us to be on the right track in strengthening the working class and proplery resisting capitalism and practising proper solidarity.
I just want working class communities to be empowered rather than the ruling class. I just want us to be on the right track in strengthening the working class and proplery resisting capitalism and practising proper solidarity.
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