Keir Starmer's time is up
- Thread starter agricola
- Start date
If people like 'Karl Masks' (probably banned returner 'glitchhiker') were serious about politics they could very easily put their time and energy into doing the right things/what needs to be done (doing their bit to create and build revolutionary/militant autonoumous alternatives from below). But they're not, instead they insist on merely putting an X on a ballot sheet to vote for a racist, right wing political party who are for the interests of the bouregeosie. Its pathetic.
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
But you do. Your position that absolutely under all circumstances people must vote is making the ballot box key. It is providing cover for the liberals, and pushing the Labour Party to the right.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Frankly I'd have (a little) more respect for Wells if he did join the Labour Party. At least that would show he is willing to put his effort (and money) where his mouth is.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Why do you keep ignoring the nuance? All that does is sacrifice people's wellbeing on the altar of ideology.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
They aren't clear. They may think they are, but I don't see clarity. I see circularity. Anarchism is great if you're an anarchist. But for everyone else there is a huge leap to be made. People like AA never bridge that gap. I've no doubt an anarchist society would be preferrable. But saying that doesn't make it a reality nor does it persuade people so.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
We all want that, but you have not explained how
No one can state that they have all the definitive answers on how to create a revolution and a decent post-revolutionary society necessarily. There is only a rough guide on how it might be done really I suppose. But trying to create and build a strong autonoumous, revolutionary movement from below that unites as many people to resist capitalism as possible would be a start and there are all sorts of ways that people can contribute to that.
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Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
You're dodging the question. If you want people to be anarchist then you are going to have to explain how that will work because the first question anyone will ask is precisely that. You are not arguing against a neutral backdrop, you are talking to people born and raised under and socialised to capitalism.
So again, how are you going to build strong autonomous revolutionary movements from below? What does that look like or mean? I mentioned circularity before, this is exactly why. You are essentially saying "in order to be anarchist we have to be anarchist". It's a great philosophy if you're already one. But for the wider society and people you, presumably, want to disuade from voting then how will you do this? What do you expect those people to do in the meantime when there's a general election imminent and the prospect of a returning tory party?
I can guarantee that average worker's response to your statement will be to point out that you are advocating something you can't even explain
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
People are dying because of the system you support and nobody's laughing. That you and many others continue to urge support for this murderous system is tragic rather than humorous.
Anyway, I'm not telling you not to vote. Do so if it'll make you feel better. I will say though that your expectations of what a right wing Labour Party will do to improve the lot of the working class are wildly unrealistic.
I can't claim to be any kind of expert, but really no one is. And theres no magic formula that can guarantee success.
Theres a whole list of grass roots, autonomous things that people can get together and do and get involved with, for example -
Propaganda/media - creating/contributing to/ distributing freesheets, website articles, leaflets, pamphlets etc, creating/putting up stickers, subvertising, attending/supporting pickets of workers, graffitti, making or contributing to podcasts or videos, having a presence on protests and getting involved in campaigns. Organising/attending/contributing to organising public meetings or organising meetings of like-minded people with a view to doing stuff or to discuss organising etc, getting involved with and having influence in/organising in a union, practicing social insertion/especifismo (which has had some success in South America). Getting involved with community organising and/or learning about it. Organising stalls and radical bookfairs, donating radical books to bookshops and libraries, setting up or getting involved with a reading/study group.
In the workplace - agitating, occupying, sabotaging, working to rule and subversion in the workplaces (and community), refusing to pay their prices or their rent, and striking when WE decide if it’s time to strike, not when union bureaucrats and the state give us permission to. Plus ofcourse, creating and/or participating in our own, horizontally organised groups and organisations, affinity groups, mutual aid groups, food kitchens and unofficial unions.
And for example, when workers aren’t paid the wages owed them, rather than asking the government to give us better legal protection, we take action to force employers to pay. Such things have been achieved with only a few dozen people. Renters unions have had many successes such as getting repairs done and refusing to pay rent increases, sometimes with only a handful of people. Setting up or getting involved with a claimants union. Getting together with others to resist, organise and practise mutual aid, including - collective expropriation (shop-lifting) and squatting. Strategic holism - focussing on the four fields of action: individual learning and inquisitiveness, interpersonal relations, social structures, and environmental structures.
These are all things that groups of people can do (and some of these things can be done by individuals) and they can be done effectively in a grass roots and autonomous way. And there are groups/orgs that do just some of these things but not necessarily all of them (for example there are groups/orgs that are mainly propaganda groups) and then hopefully grow and build on this and do more.
Imagine the power we could wield in our workplaces and our communities if thousands of us decided to refuse to be walked on, oppressed and exploited any longer, and began to act autonomously from below. We can do our bit in all these varying ways to choose from instead of just putting an X on a ballot sheet and relying on politicians and political parties and handing over our power to them and we need an autonomous grass roots movement to atleast hold the politicians etc to account so that we're not just dependent on them. We need our own power - in the workplaces and communities.
And, if you ask me, all the good things we think of as having been created by the state – free healthcare, free education, health & safety laws to protect us at work, housing regulations, sick pay, unemployment benefits, pensions – came about historically to put an end to organised campaigns of collective direct action etc that threatened the power of the ruling class and their state.
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Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
does he care?
the mandelson 'they haven't got anywhere else to go' approach, and being more interested in attracting floating voters / tories?
wonder if the limp dems will try to position themselves left of labour next time?
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
I mean, maybe this doesn't count as a revolutionary movement as such, but within the last few months we've seen a widescale grassroots movement calling for the nonpayment of energy bills, following which the conservatives announced their intention to cap the price of energy bills rather than leaving it to the free market. That's a practical example of non-electoral direct action winning real things that make people's lives better, waiting for a Labour government in 2024 or whenever would not have done that. Similarly, we have the RMT, CWU, and NHS union disputes, all of which have the potential to seriously humble this government and kick big holes in their agenda.
The thing that does my head in isn't whether people vote or not - when the day comes, vote Labour, vote Green, vote Lib Dem if that's what your heart wants, it's no skin off my nose - it's, as redsquirrel says above, the reduction of politics to voting, so we get these endless discussions about "what do you reckon you'll do in a general election that hasn't been announced yet", when there's so much we can be doing between now and then. The same thing doesn't happen with other forms of political activity, no-one goes around starting discussions on "if there's hypothetically another post strike at some point in 2023 or 2024 what are you going to do about it?" or "if you found out one of your neighbours was facing eviction at some point in 2024 how would you react?"
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Not a direct message from Sir QC himself, but ska posted the latest good word from the Labour front bench upthread:
Chilli.s
mingling jets and statuettes
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Nah, it's just appealing to the idea that mad Telegraph readers have, that people in jobs like nursing are all lazy skivers who're only interested in counting their massive piles of cash they're getting from the pockets of all those hard working lawyers.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
can't wait for him to qualify that with "except at the top and in contracting, obvs"
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Indeed, I'm impressed at how important MPs are saying the ambulance service is during the strike periods while they normally don't seem to give much of a fuck.
I don't think that everyone does want that, but if you do then surely you'd try to work towards that goal with others.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that looks more like a man who doesn't know what he's doing - his face reads 'am i supposed to be doing this?'Here he is whooping with joy as England score against Wales. The useless cunt
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
sir kc i think you'll findNot a direct message from Sir QC himself, but ska posted the latest good word from the Labour front bench upthread:
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Does keeping the NHS as an institution viable for at least the medium term not count as 'something' to these fucking people? Does the endless, everyday grind of overworked staff not count as something? Utter arseholes. There's no ignorance defence for this kind of shit, it's just outright malice.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
I didn't even realise how fucking bad that sentence is until Flavour highlighted it, but it's also a direct fuck you to the founding principles of the NHS, "free at the point of delivery" and "based on clinical need, not ability to pay" literally mean people getting something for nothing. I think Streeting is probably too thick to realise what he was actually saying there, but it's not great either way.
To be fair, he always looks that way.
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