Keir Starmer's time is up

[two sheds]

I mean, if Mogg and his mates have his way the next tory government will be bringing in abortion restrictions along US Republican lines. But I'm knocking on 70 now so that's hardly likely to affect me so hey ...

 

[SpookyFrank]

Truro so 4,000 majority and yes a swing seat, the candidate is Jennifer Forbes who supported Corbyn so fuck knows how long she'll last.

I thought the argument wasn't whether we vote in swing seats though, but whether someone with socialist principles should vote at all with Starmer leading the party. While I do understand that, I don't understand the contempt for people who'll vote to keep the tories out.

Yes fair point by kabbes

With a bunch of shit options on the table, I wouldn't criticise someone else's judgement of which is the least shit.

If you've got a particularly awful tory MP (so, any tory MP) and see a shot at getting rid of him by voting labour, go for it. The justification there would be the same as my justification for not voting; namely that the big picture doesn't really change either way.

 

[two sheds]

With a bunch of shit options on the table, I wouldn't criticise someone else's judgement of which is the least shit.

If you've got a particularly awful tory MP (so, any tory MP) and see a shot of getting rid of him by voting labour, go for it. The justification there would be the same as my justification for not voting; namely that the big picture doesn't really change either way.

Yes to an extent, although we can be sure that the right wing voters will be turning out, and that's what they'd love people to think in general. I just wonder whether that road leads to a US style Republican government because that's the way tories will be heading if they keep getting voted in.

 

[ska invita]

Truro so 4,000 majority and yes a swing seat, the candidate is Jennifer Forbes who supported Corbyn so fuck knows how long she'll last.

I thought the argument wasn't whether we vote in swing seats though, but whether someone with socialist principles should vote at all with Starmer leading the party. While I do understand that, I don't understand the contempt for people who'll vote to keep the tories out.

Yes fair point by kabbes

actually having a good candidate to vote for is another factor Ive never had the pleasure of

 

[prunus]

I am, and have always been, as one could probably easily guess from my posts on this thread, an anyone but the tories advocate, but I have to admit that my resolve is weakening with one heart sinking pronouncement from Starmer after another. I find this situation very depressing, but it still believe that another Tory victory will be disastrous for this country and its citizens (barring a small percentage of psychopathic very wealthy people). I find this outlook depressing.

So I come to ask this thread, what’s the alternative? Or is it simply, starmer equals tories, therefore tories in anyway, we’re all fucked, so give up?

 

[two sheds]

This is the key, I think. I live in a seat that the Tories win by a clear 20%+ and Labour struggle to make their deposit. So I have the luxury of deciding whether or not I vote for Labour based on pure principles. I wanted to show that I favoured the direction they moved in by having Corbyn. I now want to show that I disapprove of them getting in Starmer. People like me in this constituency can actually make a difference to Labour (ie will they get their deposit back?) but we’re not going to make any difference at all to who actually becomes MP. If I lived in a Labour marginal, I do agree that it would be a tougher choice to make.

It doesn't really negate the point you're making but I even wonder whether a poor turnout in seats Labour have no chance of getting will give that message - Starmer's as likely to think it means Labour needs to move even further to the right to attract all those swing voters.

 

[ska invita]

depends who is on the ballot but at present in most cases voting green is the only way to signal that labour have lost a vote to their left
pathetic and humiliating voting tactics aside:

So I come to ask this thread, what’s the alternative? Or is it simply, starmer equals tories, therefore tories in anyway, we’re all fucked, so give up?

the only alternative is to build power outside the political parties which at present is a pretty barren landscape. actively supporting strikes is probably the lowest hanging fruit on that score

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I thought the argument wasn't whether we vote in swing seats though, but whether someone with socialist principles should vote at all with Starmer leading the party. While I do understand that, I don't understand the contempt for people who'll vote to keep the tories out.

Aside from a few 'revolution only' types the contempt tends to come the other way IMO. Centrist types tend to get absolutely furious at the suggestion some soft right version of Labour isn't worth voting for.

 

[two sheds]

fair comment

 

[Karl Masks]

I can think of one way in which Starmer is clearly and considerably worse than Johnson for the political project I am motivated to see happen.

Johnson’s social policies were no worse than those of his predecessors, from a run-of-the-mill politics perspective. Cameron and Osborne brought austerity politics, focussed on squeezing the poor and gutting public services. May was a hardline authoritarian, also implicated in the Cameron austerity. Johnson wasn’t interested in any of that. So he didn’t represent any particular lurch right, at least fiscally speaking.

By contrast, Starmer’s approach to leading the Labour Party has been to abandon anything remotely socially democratic from the Corbyn manifestos. He represents a massive jump to the right for the party on all dimensions — authoritarian, sure, but also economically.

From that perspective, a vote for Starmer is directly a vote for more right-wing politics. It’s an endorsement of the change he represents not just for the country, but for the make-up of our political spectrum. A vote for Johnson, paradoxically, was not necessarily an endorsement of more right-wing politics; it all depended on where in the country your vote came from. People in the Tory heartlands of the South-East, for example, were not representing a shift to the right when they voted Johnson.

As for Sunak — too early to say, really, what he is compared with Johnson.

he was as much responsible, given he was a covid denying crank brexiteer chancellor. Remember his comment about 'fixing' the funding for local areas?

 

[Karl Masks]

Yes I think I'm coming round to the 'lets not vote' view. I mean, how bad could another tory government be?

the only question is do you think Labour will be worse. I don't think they will be. Even new labour imprived the NHS compared to where it was - despite pfi, alan milburn and patricia hewitt. Those microns of difference are all we have to play with. The NHS cannot survive under the Tories. Brexit will never be properly addressed or resolved (somehow) without a change in government because the EU just won't deal with the Tories

 

[two sheds]

the only question is do you think Labour will be worse. I don't think they will be. Even new labour imprived the NHS compared to where it was - despite pfi, alan milburn and patricia hewitt. Those microns of difference are all we have to play with. The NHS cannot survive under the Tories. Brexit will never be properly addressed or resolved (somehow) without a change in government because the EU just won't deal with the Tories

Indeed, I was thinking of some of the policies following the Republican model that the tories are likely to introduce if they're encouraged enough to be voted back in:

Perhaps go for wholesale selloff of the NHS, start restricting abortion rights if people like Raab and Rees Mogg get their way, avoid any chance of a future leftward move by government with stricter ID voting requirements, emulate Musk's approach to the Civil Service with wholesale sackings because they're all unnecessary really, ban strikes altogether, rid us of the strangling H&S and other red tape, push through a more market friendly version of Truss' tax cutting for the rich, build over the green belt with developer friendly low-tax areas, start up a few more coal mines, stop all these inefficient subsidies of railways and councils, get rid of expensive state pensions ...

As bad as Labour are I can't see them going that far while I can see elements of the tory party doing that if they wrest power from the wishy washy moderates we have now.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Indeed, I was thinking of some of the policies following the Republican model that the tories are likely to introduce if they're encouraged enough to be voted back in:

Perhaps go for wholesale selloff of the NHS, start restricting abortion rights if people like Raab and Rees Mogg get their way, avoid any chance of a future leftward move by government with stricter ID voting requirements, emulate Musk's approach to the Civil Service with wholesale sackings because they're all unnecessary really, ban strikes altogether, rid us of the strangling H&S and other red tape, push through a more market friendly version of Truss' tax cutting for the rich, build over the green belt with developer friendly low-tax areas, start up a few more coal mines, stop all these inefficient subsidies of railways and councils, get rid of expensive state pensions ...

As bad as Labour are I can't see them going that far while I can see elements of the tory party doing that if they wrest power from the wishy washy moderates we have now.

Lets vote Mussolini, he's not as bad as that awful Hitler chap.

 

[two sheds]

Indeed, lets not vote at all, get that stirring Hitler chap in power. He'll sort out the problems.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Indeed, lets not vote at all, get that stirring Hitler chap in power. He'll sort out the problems.

Basically you're way too dependent on politicians.

 

[two sheds]

And you're not? Nothing they do affects you at all

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Deleted. point already made up- thread.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

And you're not? Nothing they do affects you at all

I'm not as dependent as some and and not by my own choice. Just look at where electoralism and politicians has led us.

 

[two sheds]

Just look where voting the tories in has led us.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I'll probably vote Green. Not because they have a hope of getting in. Not because I believe in parliamentary politics. Largely because the more votes they get the more our political discourse will take notice of ecological issues.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Indeed, lets not vote at all, get that stirring Hitler chap in power. He'll sort out the problems.

Nothing wrong at all with not voting for a racist and anti-working class party that'll probably be sexist to working class women in power aswell. When grass roots, autonomous alternatives are needed instead its the decent thing to do.

 

[two sheds]

Unless not voting actually puts the racist and anti-working class party into power.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Unless not voting actually puts the racist and anti-working class party into power.

You seem to be intentionally missing the point.

 

[two sheds]

As do you

 

[AmateurAgitator]

And does anyone really expect the likes of Starmer to do anything meaningful about the energy price rises and inflation?

In any case we atleast need autonomous alternatives from below to hold politicians to account.

 

[kabbes]

For me, I should have learned my lesson about lesser-evilism when I knew what Blair was like but voted for him anyway in his second election. But I was only 24 and so I didn't take the lesson to heart. Instead, I stuck with lesser-evilism and voted for the Liberals in my Lib vs Tory constituencies. Then when the Liberals got enough MPs to make a difference, they went into coalition with the Tories anyway. That time, I really did learn my lesson and swore that never again would I vote for somebody I disliked just because I disliked the other guy more. It makes me feel shit and then it doesn't actually help anyway.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Unless not voting actually puts the racist and anti-working class party into power.

Which one is the non-racist, pro-working class party again?

 

[two sheds]

The one in Amateur Agitator's example

Mind you he doesn't think it really matters whether Trump gets in or not next time in the US, so we're unlikely to agree on much.

 

[Chz]

I live in a swing seat, but it's LD/Tory so I may just bring a lighter and burn the ballot. I say that as someone who actually voted for the previous LD MP as a decent enough local MP (he knew how to answer mail, show up, etc., which many of my previous MPs never did), but he's retired now so there's nothing to drive me that way.

 

[redsquirrel]

So I come to ask this thread, what’s the alternative? Or is it simply, starmer equals tories, therefore tories in anyway, we’re all fucked, so give up?

The alternative is trying to re-build the labour movement. And of course that is hard, of course it is difficult but that really is the only option on the table for anyone with any sort of class politics.

The gains workers have obtained were not obtained because of the largess of the Labour Party (or any other party), they were gained through working class solidarity and class politics. Yes the LP might have passed bills in Westminster but it was the labour movement that won those victories. Even at its most radical the LP was always only (part of) the parliamentary wing of the labour movement.

Politics does not end with voting, it starts from there.
We are seeing more industrial action than for decades. There are community groups forming, there is a lot of action on environmental issues. There is no shortage of alternatives to voting red/orange/yellow/green and then doing little but going on about how awful the Tories and Starmer are.