Keir Starmer's time is up
- Thread starter agricola
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Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
I'll be honest. I'll take that chance. At least I can then laugh at the centrists. Ha ha, I'll say.I did start wondering the other day (after watching the Labour Al Jazeera videos admittedly) - what if he turned out to be actually worse than the tories?
maomao
普費斯
What do you mean 'turned out'?I did start wondering the other day (after watching the Labour Al Jazeera videos admittedly) - what if he turned out to be actually worse than the tories?
The only way I'll be voting Labour is if my neighbour's the candidate again. But she's a bit of a lefty so it's unlikely.
It will continue with a Labour govt, voted for by spineless mugs like you. You'll be voting for a party whose leader thinks 'theres too many foreigners in the NHS' for a start and who are just as authoritarian as the tories. You might as well be a peasant in feudal times on the side of a 'benevolent Baron' or something. But why you'd vote for out and out flag-shagging racists who are so eager to punish the poor I don't know. Electoralism is weird and this is where its taken us.
I don't know, maybe you're just trolling.
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
The Tories are openly vicious while Labour will try and dress their viciousness up a bit. So vote for whoever you like.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
I'm pretty ambivalent about voting, for me it is largely an apolitical action.
But If one is going to make a political argument for anyone but the Tories and a progressive alliance then the logical consequence of such a position in the current context is Starmer, it is a Labour Party as it currently is, a Labour Party that will attack strikers and migrants, it is support for liberalism and opposition to socialism (even social democracy).
This Starmer is terrible! but You must vote Labour/Lib Dem is just political incoherent drivel
But If one is going to make a political argument for anyone but the Tories and a progressive alliance then the logical consequence of such a position in the current context is Starmer, it is a Labour Party as it currently is, a Labour Party that will attack strikers and migrants, it is support for liberalism and opposition to socialism (even social democracy).
This Starmer is terrible! but You must vote Labour/Lib Dem is just political incoherent drivel
Yep, two cheeks of the same arse but unfortunately theres a definite double standard going on with some people.
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teqniq
DisMembered
More dire shite apparently asked about it at the meeting with business people that I posted about upthread:
www.theguardian.com
Labour refuses to promise repeal of planned Tory anti-strike laws
Keir Starmer calls proposed legislation ‘wrong’, but does not commit to scrapping it if it becomes law
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
No surprise there then.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Johnson killed tens of thousands almost including himself. He repeateedly lied to Parliament. He's a thug and a bully. He's responsible for the deadlock in Northern Ireland (even though the DUP could decide to stop being cunts). He let children starve twice during a pandemic.
Yes the differences between them are wafer thin. But you're just wrong in claiming he was better. That's just not true. Sunak may turn out to be worse, but at this point we've seen all he can offer. He's a lame duck and a dead man walking.
Starmer is a dismal authoritarian for sure. But there are material differences in what they are promising and what the Tories are delivering. For example, Labour pledged to end the five week wait for UC. Will they keep that pledge? Who knows, but the Tories are never going to abolish it.
We don't live in an ideal world
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
how so?
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
See the middle paragraph from redsquirrel. Think of a dot-to-dot puzzle.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Because, as much as some liberals may wish it we aren't just isolated individuals in our own little boxes, politics is social.
A politics built around a progressive alliance or on a blank check for Labour empowers the liberalism of the party. The LP (and its equivalent in other countries) know it just has to be not quite blue, and it can still count on the support of 'the left' - to paraphrase Mandelson, where else are they going to go?
Starmer, like New Labour, is the logical and practical outcome of Anti-Tory politics.
I know members of the Labour Party that I like and respect, they work hard in workplaces and communities for workers. But however much they dislike Starner, however much they argue for other positions, they are (to a greater or lesser degree) supporting attacks on workers.
I can understand the arguments for the lesser evil, that it is better pissing out than pissing in, etc but there has to be some context applied otherwise one will end up supporting any attack on workers so long as there is another group out that is slightly worse (the logic which takes you to 'vote Jobbik not Fidesz').
maomao
普費斯
The only reason you can say this about Johnson and not Starmer is that Johnson was in government and Starmer hassn't been yet. Johnson's crimes are in the past and Starmer's in the future.
I can think of one way in which Starmer is clearly and considerably worse than Johnson for the political project I am motivated to see happen.
Johnson’s social policies were no worse than those of his predecessors, from a run-of-the-mill politics perspective. Cameron and Osborne brought austerity politics, focussed on squeezing the poor and gutting public services. May was a hardline authoritarian, also implicated in the Cameron austerity. Johnson wasn’t interested in any of that. So he didn’t represent any particular lurch right, at least fiscally speaking.
By contrast, Starmer’s approach to leading the Labour Party has been to abandon anything remotely socially democratic from the Corbyn manifestos. He represents a massive jump to the right for the party on all dimensions — authoritarian, sure, but also economically.
From that perspective, a vote for Starmer is directly a vote for more right-wing politics. It’s an endorsement of the change he represents not just for the country, but for the make-up of our political spectrum. A vote for Johnson, paradoxically, was not necessarily an endorsement of more right-wing politics; it all depended on where in the country your vote came from. People in the Tory heartlands of the South-East, for example, were not representing a shift to the right when they voted Johnson.
As for Sunak — too early to say, really, what he is compared with Johnson.
Johnson’s social policies were no worse than those of his predecessors, from a run-of-the-mill politics perspective. Cameron and Osborne brought austerity politics, focussed on squeezing the poor and gutting public services. May was a hardline authoritarian, also implicated in the Cameron austerity. Johnson wasn’t interested in any of that. So he didn’t represent any particular lurch right, at least fiscally speaking.
By contrast, Starmer’s approach to leading the Labour Party has been to abandon anything remotely socially democratic from the Corbyn manifestos. He represents a massive jump to the right for the party on all dimensions — authoritarian, sure, but also economically.
From that perspective, a vote for Starmer is directly a vote for more right-wing politics. It’s an endorsement of the change he represents not just for the country, but for the make-up of our political spectrum. A vote for Johnson, paradoxically, was not necessarily an endorsement of more right-wing politics; it all depended on where in the country your vote came from. People in the Tory heartlands of the South-East, for example, were not representing a shift to the right when they voted Johnson.
As for Sunak — too early to say, really, what he is compared with Johnson.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Succinctly put. I agree.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Sure shammer's still done loads of shit things even if they're not formally crimes
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Got to agree with redsquirrel here. I'm coming from a much less radical place tbh - I'd probably lap up some soft left social democracy if it was on offer - but the 'vote for anyone but the Tories' logic ultimately leads to supporting any old shit doesn't it, as long as it has a red badge on it. I did vote Labour under Corbyn but I'm not voting for Starmer on a 'make things worse a bit more slowly' basis.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
No doubt, but despite everything I think it's a stretch to assert he'd be worse. But I didn't make that assertion so it seems weird to criticise my response given that.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
The look on Starmer's face when he realises his interlocutor would make a better leader of the labour party than him
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Yuck.
Starmer plans venture capitalists tax break as Labour to 'partner with business'
The Labour leader parked his tanks firmly on the Tories' lawn with a speech to 350 business leaders in London's Canary Wharf - and a report that recommends expanding tax break schemes for wealthy investorswww.mirror.co.uk
Every time you think he can't get worse...
Fucking 'venture capital' FFS. What about actual productivity? Why should we subsidise gambling with other people's money? Why should we emulate the US when the US is a complete basket case?
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Haven't you got that alleged rapist Tory bloke for an MP ATM?
maomao
普費斯
One of them. He did disappear for a few months but seems to be back now. Not sure if he's back in the commons but he did vote (for Johnson I'd imagine) in Johnson's party confidence vote back in June. His alleged victim (former Conservative leader of the council who had worked in the MP's office on work experience which is when the alleged incident allegedly took place) has meanwhile disappeared from public life (the Tories no longer control the council) so maybe he's confident he's got away with it. He (the MP) gets a lot of abuse about it when he posts to the local Facebook group which makes me think he won't do quite so well in the next election but we'll see.
ska invita
back on the other side
do you live in a swing seat? If no then why bother
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Another tory government is nailed on already, that's why I'm not voting.
e2a: Also the quite good local MP is retiring and Labour have picked some nonentity flown in from London to replace him.
This is the key, I think. I live in a seat that the Tories win by a clear 20%+ and Labour struggle to make their deposit. So I have the luxury of deciding whether or not I vote for Labour based on pure principles. I wanted to show that I favoured the direction they moved in by having Corbyn. I now want to show that I disapprove of them getting in Starmer. People like me in this constituency can actually make a difference to Labour (ie will they get their deposit back?) but we’re not going to make any difference at all to who actually becomes MP. If I lived in a Labour marginal, I do agree that it would be a tougher choice to make.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Truro so 4,000 majority and yes a swing seat, the candidate is Jennifer Forbes who supported Corbyn so fuck knows how long she'll last.
I thought the argument wasn't whether we vote in swing seats though, but whether someone with socialist principles should vote at all with Starmer leading the party. While I do understand that, I don't understand the contempt for people who'll vote to keep the tories out.
Yes fair point by kabbes
I thought the argument wasn't whether we vote in swing seats though, but whether someone with socialist principles should vote at all with Starmer leading the party. While I do understand that, I don't understand the contempt for people who'll vote to keep the tories out.
Yes fair point by kabbes
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